|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
04-11-2006, 07:03 PM | #1 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
04-11-2006, 07:18 PM | #2 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
*pops in*
Quote:
*disappears in a puff of smoke*
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
04-16-2006, 07:13 PM | #3 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
04-16-2006, 07:27 PM | #4 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
You can look it up if you like.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
04-16-2006, 10:26 PM | #5 | ||||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, the doctrines themselves include violent teachings, and the example of Mohammed and his earliest followers shows what they mean. Unless Muslims turn away from Mohammed, they could not turn away from violence. Many Muslims have, but it seems implausible that all will, permanently. And a growing number is turning back toward violence. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Old Testament doesn't include commands like that. God commanded the Jews, "attack this group," or "attack that group," but he didn't say, "attack all unbelievers!" That's why after one group was attacked, Israel could stop attacking unless God commanded again. Islam is very different. It just gives general orders for jihad against unbelievers, and modern Muslims as well as Muslims throughout history have acted on his words, among other things, of course. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||||||||||
04-17-2006, 12:00 AM | #6 | ||||
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-17-2006 at 12:10 AM. |
||||
04-17-2006, 02:12 AM | #7 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Lief, my oma lived in holland during the war, and let me assure you, she was more than aware of what was going on in Germany during the war.
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
04-18-2006, 02:13 AM | #8 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
|
04-18-2006, 02:35 AM | #9 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Yes, I'd like to see your response to my oma's first-hand accounts of the war, lief. She has on more than one occasion relayed to me what it was like to live in fear during the war, subsisting on nothing but tulip-bulb soup. Trust me, people were aware of what those nazi-@#$Rers were up to.
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
04-17-2006, 07:44 AM | #10 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
04-17-2006, 11:48 AM | #11 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
|
Nazism was NOT Christian
Should we (please) split this into a separate thread?
Hitler was not a Christian: Nazism was not based on Christianity. Many Nazis were Christian; or to put it more logically and chronologically, many Christians became Nazis, but Nazi ideology was totally opposed to Christian ideals. The fact that many Nazis proclaimed themselves to be Christians- while trying to explain away the awkward fact that Jesus was Jewish- merely shows the ability of the human mind to hold contradictory viewpoints. |
04-17-2006, 01:11 PM | #12 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Attacking or trying to change one's ideals is simply dealing with the symptoms, not the underlying problems. Post-ww1 germany or the post-civil war deep south are examples of environments that were ripe for idealistic fervor, in one case the nazis and in another the KKK. The middle east during muhammed's time was a similar environment, as is today's environment in that same part of the world. Why do you have a peaceful muslim in california and a violent one in the west bank? It's not because one is more devout than the other. It's not about belief systems at all. It's about the environment that person lives in. And if you want to change that, you work to change that environment, not their way of expressing their discontent.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
04-17-2006, 08:04 PM | #13 | ||||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Historians are more thorough, however. They go through the boring as well as the interesting records. Quote:
Lotesse, about the speeches you posted links to, I have two comments. First, it's logical that Hitler would want to put on a pretense at Christianity, seeing as he would have been aware he was living in a country that was 12/13 of the way Christian. A second point I wanted to raise was that in the second two speeches you pointed out, the 1933 and 1938 speeches, though it was clear he believed in a "God," there was nothing specific that pointed to Christianity. The earlier speech Spock already responded about, and I'd like to see how that discussion plays out before commenting. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Parts of Christianity have remained the same throughout history, as I pointed out on the other thread. Islam has always had a strongly warlike tendency. This is just returning. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, I'm not convinced Judaism has really changed either. The actions of Israel are often of a violent, aggressive manner. Of course there are good reasons for some of this violence. Self-defense is completely legitimate. But some of their actions have been land grabs at other people's expense. While I know most of Israel is secular, there are a lot of religious Jews there too. I'm just not sure, on that one. The Jews have lacked political power, and it could be argued that that's one of the reasons they haven't been violent.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-18-2006 at 01:04 AM. |
||||||||||||||||||
04-18-2006, 08:00 PM | #14 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Quote:
January 1942: USSR sends a letter signed by its Foreign Minister Molotov, about terrible deeds done by Germans in the occupied lands of the Soviet Union. July 1942: "Reigner telegram", a telegram from a German industrialist sends it to London and later it reaches the US. It says that the German plan is to take the Jews from all lands under Germany and exterminate them. December 1942: An official public declaration of the Allies, about the Nazi crimes - starvation, mass-executions, etc... I doubt most historians disagree with me. Yad Vashem states that "most of the population in Germany and occupied Europe was aware of the treatment to Jews" yet has done nothing. The Allies knew exactly where Auschwitz is in 1944 when two prisioners of the camp escaped. They also took photos of Aschwitz and even saw the Jews taken into the Gas Chambers. (I can scan the photo if you wish, from the book) About the Vatican - as far as I know it hasn't condemned the actions of Germany during the war. Condemning could probably save lives as most Polish for instance are Catholic, and many helped the Nazis to catch escaping or hiding Jews. |
|
04-18-2006, 08:21 PM | #15 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||
04-17-2006, 06:58 PM | #16 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, the jihad is against pagans not Jews of Christians. Quote:
|
||||||
04-17-2006, 02:51 PM | #17 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Hitler, As A Christian...
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
–Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 “National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938. “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs. I guess this means we really need a new thread to debate this "Was Hitler A Christian" hot topic. Time for a thread-split?
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-17-2006 at 02:54 PM. |
04-17-2006, 03:06 PM | #18 | ||||
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
I know I'm going to be sorry for even trying but some things need to be said.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
||||
04-17-2006, 03:58 PM | #19 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Recently, of course, we have seen this refocused more sharply for political ends. And that, in the end, is the only meaningful parallel with Hitler: exploiting and inflaming existing prejudices for political gain. If we allow them to get away with it, then the lessons of Nazism have not been learned. Thanks for the compliment, btw, though I cannot claim to be particularly educated in this field. I did once review an excellent little book called "A Brief History of Blasphemy" by Richard Webster, which is a great source for historical context. Bizarrely, it's the baby's favourite book: he always pulls it off the shelf and sits quietly turning over the pages. Must get a photo of that, one with the book's title visible, just in case he starts dating a minister's daughter in later life |
|
04-18-2006, 02:58 PM | #20 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Hitler, his Christianity, & the Church
O.k., the following is an excerpt from a well-researched essay explaining Hitler's christianity and church ties -
Hitler’s involvement with the Church: a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria. b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.) c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church. d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf) e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell) h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust: Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs. Now, you must remember before Hitler rose to Chancellor of Germany the country was in a deep economic depression due to the Versailles treaty. The Versailles treaty demanded that Germans made financial reparations for the previous war and Germany simply was not self sufficient enough in order to pay the debt. Hitler was the leader that raised Germany out of the depression and brought them back to a world recognized power. Due to his annulment of the financial woes of the Germanic people he became their redeemer and they anointed him as the leader of the German Reich Christian Church in 1933. This placed him in power of the German Christian Socialist movement which legislates their political and religious agendas. It united all denominations, mainly the Protestant/Catholic and Lutheran people to instill faith in a national Christianity. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Perhaps, Gwaimir, Hitler was feeling fed up with being christian by 1941, or his heavy drug use and increasing tyrannical craziness was causing him to start to vacillate on what his ideas, beliefs and desires were, but for his entire life, he had claimed christianity and been an active part of the church. By 1941, which is three years before his death & the end of the Nazi Party's reign, the damage had already been done from this "back-sliding" christian. Who knows, maybe he said some prayers to himself before he bit that cyanide capsule, in the hopes that at the last minute, he could get rescued by god & avoid hell. Who knows. Anyway, the point I am trying to make with all this about hitler's christianity is to show that great evils have been done with the mantle of christianity, just as with islam today. And also what The Gaffer said yesterday; he hit the nail on the head: Quote:
"God With Us"
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 03:23 PM. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Hitler: The Rise of Evil | Nerdanel | Entertainment Forum | 3 | 05-07-2005 06:15 PM |