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11-19-2001, 10:41 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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How did Beren and Luthien die?
In the Silmarillion Beren is killed by the dwarfs who sacked Doriath and I don't think it mentions what happens to Luthien at all.
As the "Ruin of Doriath" is considered false by many people what does it say in HOME or Letters about the deaths of the couple? |
11-19-2001, 11:09 PM | #2 |
The man
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I'm not the authority here on all things nerdy Tolkien, but I'm pretty sure it was good old old age.
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11-20-2001, 04:15 AM | #3 |
Elven Warrior
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Um... I think you're confusing Beren with Dior. Beren was killed by Carcharoth during the Hunting of the Wolf. After Luthien chose mortality, they returned to Ossiriand and eventually died of old age.
Beren's connection to the dwarves was that he led an army of Green-Elves that slaughtered the Dwarves who were returning from the sack of Doriath.
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11-20-2001, 07:49 AM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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RE
No I'm not:
Indeed Beren was killed once before by Carcharoth but in the Silmarillion at least, he was killed for the last time by Dwarfs of Nogrod: "And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the shepherds of the trees, and they drove the dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence it is said came never one to to climb the high passes that led to their homes. In that battle by Sarn Athrad Beren fought his last fight, and himself slew the Lord of Nogrod, and wrested from him the necklace of the Dwarves; but dying laid his curse upon all the treasure. Then Beren gazed in wonder on the selfsame jewel of Feanor that he had cut from Morgoth's iron crown , now shining set amid gold and gems by the cunning of the dwarves; and he washed it clean of blood in the waters of the river......................................but Beren took the nauglamir and returned to Tol Galen. Little did it ease the grief of Luthien to learn that the Lord of Nogrod was slain and many Dwarves beside; but it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been outside the realm of Valinor..............Now Dior Thingol's heir bade farewell to Beren and Luthien," Hmm, 1 minute he's dying on the field of battle, the next he's returning with the silmaril to Tol Galen...I'm confused! |
11-20-2001, 07:55 AM | #5 |
Elven Warrior
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RE
OMG
I don't believe this, it looks like I've misunderstood what it said... "In that battle by Sarn Athrad Beren fought his last fight, and himself slew the Lord of Nogrod, and wrested from him the necklace of the Dwarves; but dying laid his curse upon all the treasure." So it was the Lord of Nogrod who was dying and laid the curse on all the treasure and not Beren...silly me |
12-27-2001, 09:45 PM | #6 |
Sapling
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To my understanding of Luthien is that she did not give up her "mortality" rather she commited suicide, that is where she was given a second chance, but only could return as beren could.
"For it was the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Luthien came to say her *last* farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Luthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass." Silmarillion p186 Unless I miss understood this section, it seemed to further in the chapter when she met with Beren, she had to been, for he was dead as well. |
12-27-2001, 10:01 PM | #7 |
The man
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Suicide? How shall I put this? Um, no.
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12-29-2001, 03:35 PM | #8 |
The Insufferable
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Beren was slain by carcharoth.
luthien faded and died from grief. Both were reincarnated. Both died of natural causes.
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12-30-2001, 02:58 PM | #9 |
Elf Lord
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couldn't have put it better myself!
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12-31-2001, 04:48 AM | #10 |
Elven Loremaster
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Actually, Tolkien wrote (in his speculative narrative voice) that the Silmaril probably speeded the deaths of Beren and Luthien.
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01-02-2002, 09:06 PM | #11 |
The Insufferable
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That's the Valinor/Too Holy For Thou thing coming into play again, ya think?
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
01-02-2002, 11:44 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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RE
If that's the case Wayfarer why would Luthien have her life speeded up? She was half Elf and more than that half Maia also. It didn't speed up Feanor or Thingol's life did it?
edit: Oops, I didn't notice that MM said that the silmaril sped up the death's of Luthien and Beren and not their lives. Last edited by Captain Stern : 01-02-2002 at 11:46 PM. |
01-13-2002, 09:54 PM | #13 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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Well, first off, Eol, welcome to the Moot.
Second, as for the [second] death of Beren, I can find no primary source to indicate how he, or Luthien, "died for good". So far. I am still trying to find a cite.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
01-14-2002, 07:26 PM | #14 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I believe I read somewhere that as Luthien wore the necklace with the silmaril her beauty would have been to great for Middle Earth, so that could have been it, that speeding it up I mean
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01-24-2002, 09:53 PM | #15 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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I thought the knowledge of their deaths was unknown.
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01-24-2002, 10:15 PM | #16 | ||
Elven Warrior
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RE: How did Beren and Luthien die?
Quote:
Quote:
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01-25-2002, 04:38 PM | #17 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Why thank you Captain Stern! My point exactly.
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