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01-10-2006, 05:42 PM | #1 | ||||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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What is death for Ainur?
I would like to continue the discussion on death and immortality of Ainur, started in another thread, as I find it very interesting. I am afraid I am not knowledgeable enough in these matters, so I will explain how I see it, and please, correct me if I am wrong.
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As I see it, for a man or an elf "to die" means that their spirit (fëa) leaves the body (hröa) and goes to Mandos and beyond (in case of Men). Hröa remains and slowly rots. Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar. So here we have a "mortal" hröa and an immortal fëa. In this Elves and Men are alike, only an Elven hröa endures much longer, almost indefinitely long. Now let us take an Ainu. They are immortal fëar not necessarily clad in a hröa. (Somewhere Tolkien says that bodies are like clothes to them). Ulmo may appear as a wave, Yavanna as a tree etc., but mostly they are clad in anthropomorphic hröar. If a hröa of an Ainu is irreparably damaged, the fëa clads itself into a new one. No big deal normally. But there is the notion of an "incarnate" ainu. Melkor and Sauron became more and more incarnate: Quote:
What is death to all these incarnate Maiar? When their hröa is damaged, the immortal fëa lives on, but is nullified - rendered powerless until it manages "to rebuild a semblance of its former habitation" That must take a lo-oong time, (1000+ years for Sauron) UNLESS the fëa gets some help from the Valar (Gandalf's fëa went back to Valinor and got reincarnated in less than a month) or from the Ring (Sauron after the Downfall got reincarnated in less than 100 years). The poor Barlog was "nullified", when Gandalf destroyed his body and he got no external help. Though perhaps, who knows, in 2000 years he may walk again. The same applies to Saruman. No help from the Valar: his spirit turned to the West, but was rejected, so his houseless fëa remained in ME. But I agree with brownjenkins, his spirit did continue on. As well as Sauron's after the destruction of the Ring. Interesting what happens with Maiar's hröar. We witnessed several "deaths" of incarnate Maiar: 1. Sauron at Orodruin. We don't know what happened with his body. I personally think that at it was literally burning hot it simply withered to ashes and disappeared, after Isildur cut the finger. 2.The Moria Barlog was thrown down from the mountain peak but then what?? 3. Gandalf suffered critical damages in his fight with the Barlog. I think after that he got a new body as a. he was not immediately recognizable b. he had no traces of burns and bruises. c. he claimed that he forgot a lot and remembered a lot etc, no wonder with a new brain! 4. Saruman - most interesting case. Quote:
1. the Witch-King - disappeared entirely, leaving no body, either visible or invisible. Perhaps the nazgul acquired some Ainu properties? 2. Feanor. Quote:
If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well. Here is the end of my ramblings. What do you think on this all? |
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01-10-2006, 05:54 PM | #2 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-10-2006, 05:57 PM | #3 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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too late for me to comment on these thoughts today, but good ones
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01-10-2006, 07:35 PM | #4 |
Hobbit in the Music
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Well, I would say that unlike elves and men, the life-force of a Maia is not normally tied to their bodies, but to their power and their will (this is true to a lesser extent for elves and men also; they can die from simply losing the will to live). CrazySquirrel said a lot about Incartation that changes this, but I'll focus on the normal case. When Maiar have more power, their life-force is strong and they can more easily create a new body. When Saruman's staff was broken, he lost his power, and since he had grown bitter by the time Wormtongue killed him, his will was also pretty weak. Sauron protected his life-force by putting his power and will into the ring. When he lost it, his body died, but his life-force remained since his power and will still existed in the ring. When it was destroyed, his rudimentary body (the Eye) died again. I think the Balrog lost its power and will gradually in the fight with Gandalf, so it is also powerless to return.
I believe that their spirits didn't die but that they're still out there somewhere and perhaps have some small intelligence and sense of self left, but with no power or will they are helpless to do anything but perhaps give people evil thoughts. Power is also related to will, I think, for Gandalf seems to have more or less power depending on his mood and level of desperation. As for Feanor, I really don't think he was any form of Maia, just an elf whose spirit was too strong for his body. Spirits can be compared to fire, I think. We speak of some people having more "spark" or "fire" than others-- their will is stronger. I think that's what Feanor's "fiery spirit" means. It made him powerful in learning, craftsmanship, and magic, but also arrogant and self-obsessed, and led to his downfall. |
01-11-2006, 05:51 PM | #5 | |||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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I think I offer a realistic explanation . Quote:
Feanor's mother killed herself, his father remarried (also very exceptional- but understandable if his first wife had been unfaithful) and Feanor himself got a "fiery" spirit and a cruel, evil character... Quote:
No, no, it is only in the movie! |
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01-11-2006, 08:12 PM | #6 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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thread question - "What is death for Ainur?"
Answer - listening to Tom Bombadil's songs 24/7 ... (and more on-topic : aren't they called the "deathless ones" somewhere? or is my memory failing me?)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-13-2006, 10:34 AM | #7 | ||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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01-11-2006, 05:33 AM | #8 | ||
Elf Lord
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Nice topic, CS. Couple of observations:
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Also, elves who do not die and do not travel into the West gradually fade from the material world. Their hröa is consumed by their fëa. Quote:
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01-16-2006, 01:00 PM | #9 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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There is no conspiracy. Did you ever heard of spontaneous combustion? People get burnt to ashes in real life without any illegimate relations to the Dark Charmer. The Gaffer Quote:
Gordis Quote:
Only one occurence of Numenor's straight contact with Valinor has been registered in Numenor's history:in the time of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir "the messengers" from Aman had been wisiting the Isle of Elenna. But I have no idea of how to connect this fact with an establishment of the order. Gordis Quote:
RÃ*an Quote:
"I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell." ..."the stars wheeled over and each day was as long as a life-age on the earth." (TTT. "The white rider") Gordis Quote:
Thanks a bunch, guys!!! |
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01-16-2006, 06:18 PM | #10 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Tolkien's original idea was that wizards were Men: Gandalf spoke of "our noble profession". Originally there was no connection of wizards to Valinor, instead, some of them were meant to be Numenoreans, only with special knowledge and powers. And though Tolkien has corrected almost all the vertiges of this earlier conception from the text, some are still there. For example: "Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten" Now everyone thinks that it refers to Valinor. No, originally it referred to Numenor. And really, what "youth" can Gandalf the Maia speak about? The maia was young long before the stars and the Sun and the trees... It is useless to argue against the earlier drafts using the conceptions that were developed much later. Yes, sure they do not fit, but that's why they were edited! |
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01-17-2006, 08:48 AM | #11 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Well, I will leave your shoes to you, as you are back But I still prefer my "Feanor as the Dark Charmer's son" idea to your spontaneous combustion. At least my theory explains all the facts. |
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01-17-2006, 11:42 PM | #12 | |
Elf Lord
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Would you delineate your theory more clearly, so we can see how it explains all the facts? |
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01-20-2006, 04:23 PM | #13 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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As for all the facts, I meant: 1. Feanor's mother, Miriel, after birthing Feanor, decided to die - unheard of in Elvish history. Suicide. 2. Feanor's father, Finwe, re-married - unprecedented and never repeated deed. 3. Morgoth killed Finwe. 4. Feanor was the most crafty, gifted etc. of all the elves. 5. Feanor and most of his sons were cruel, obstinate and often outright evil, committing crimes unheard of before - kin-slaying, abandoning of his kin in dire situation, burning stolen ships, not to mention attempted rape (Luthien) and usurping Finrod's crown, and two other kin-slaying all done by his sons. 6. Galadriel, who had an uncanny abiity to sense evil (like in Annatar) never liked or trusted Feanor, even before his rebellion, she didn't give him even a strand of her hair, though he was her uncle. 7. Feanor's body disappeared as one of a maia. Yes, my "theory" explains all these facts, while "natural combustion" doesn't. Last edited by CrazySquirrel : 01-20-2006 at 04:28 PM. |
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01-21-2006, 02:48 AM | #14 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by Landroval : 01-21-2006 at 02:49 AM. |
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01-22-2006, 12:24 PM | #15 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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bump post
Testing.
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01-22-2006, 05:24 PM | #16 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Wauu Landroval!
You are a learned one! Pleasure to have you on the Moot. Welcome! |
01-22-2006, 07:08 PM | #17 |
AngAdan
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All the power of the Valar could not enitely destroy Morgoth even when he was captured and the end of the first age. As low as he had sunk, becoming locked in in the last body he had made, his spirit could not be obliterated and he is expected to return at some distant future. The Valar obliterated his bodys, puverzing it and scattering the dust. They dug out and likeiwse dealt with concentrations of his creative essence in the crust of the earth. They used all their power to thrust his spirit out of the creation, but still he is prphised to return for another war in the future. Apparently with enough time, and Ainu can come back from anything.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 01-22-2006 at 07:09 PM. |
01-22-2006, 07:42 PM | #18 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Well Morgoth was a Vala and the strongest originally. Anyway Ainu's fear are really undestructible.
But I think it was made clear, that Sauron would be forever unable to make himself a new body? About Gandalf, my point was that he was not self-resurrected, someone (well let it be Eru, not Valar) took care of his reincarnation. |
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