Special Viewing for Tolkein, embrace/loath?

[thranduil]

Tolkein alone is seated in a theater. He wonders what he is going to see, and then the film rolls. And he is showed the first two movies uncut.

Does his curiosity get the best of him and he watches with eagerness? Is he marvelling at how accurate and true they are? Does he want to give PJ a "Tolkein approved" stamp?

Or does Tolkein walk out in disgust as soon as he learns that even though he said he didn't want his books to be made into movies, some jerk does it anyways. Does he plan some painful death for PJ.

Im interested to hear if mooters think Tolkein might actually like the movies even the slightest bit. Or would he despise them.

[Celebréiel]

I can see this thread getting pretty ugly pretty quick. Its kinda silly to discuss if Tolkien would like the films or not (imho )...only because it goes down to what youve read about him, and your opinion vs. others etc. No one on this board knew the man (I think so at least... ) I have absolutely no clue if he would like them or not....and anyone that says they know for sure are just being cocky...
so, Imho, I have no clue what he would think....not even a guess...
Im sure many people know alot more about him than me though..so hey...maybe it wont be so silly.....

[Cassius]

Well, from what I know of Tolkein he really didn't like anybody messing with his work. He would get mad at any editors that changed his script, since he did teach english at one of the most prestigious schools in the modern world. I think he wouldn't have liked what was changed, but would have appreciated the effort involved.

[thranduil]

I realized the absurdness of this thread after It was posted. But oh well, maybe some crazy purists or movie fans will debate, anyways. I still wish he could see them

[Aden]

I agree with Cassius I'm almost sure he wouldn't like the changes. He worked so hard for his books to be so close to perfection.

[Black Breathalizer]

What we do know is that Tolkien was cool with the idea of movies being made of the LOTR. We also know that he was okay with changes to his story.

Regarding Peter Jackson's films, I doubt he would have agreed with all of the screenwriters' decisions. But I do believe he would have respected the efforts made to make Middle Earth feel real and to bring his characters to life.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The above observations on JRRT are well-reasoned and logical.

But since he isn't here why not ask, oh..................say, Christopher Tolkien and one of CT's grandsons what they think?

[Aden]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
What we do know is that Tolkien was cool with the idea of movies being made of the LOTR. We also know that he was okay with changes to his story.

Regarding Peter Jackson's films, I doubt he would have agreed with all of the screenwriters' decisions. But I do believe he would have respected the efforts made to make Middle Earth feel real and to bring his characters to life.

I also believe that Tolkien would have respected the efforts made ( they are great ones indeed ). But I insist that he would probably be disappointed with several parts of the movies.

[jerseydevil]

i don't think that Tolkien would have been happy with them at all. I think he would have considered them a mockery. he would have been upset by the dwarf tossing jokes, the Aragorn denying his heritage, Merry or Pippin farting after eating Limbus, etc.

He would have run out of the theater in disgust.

[azalea]

The only thing I can see about this thread is the predictability of each members' posts.
I happen to think from what I've read so far in Letters (did you guys see that scathing comments he made about the pictures by the woman originally contracted to illustrate Farmer Giles of Ham? ) that he would have been generally unhappy with the movies, but would also have found some pleasure in seeing his characters brought to life, even if they weren't "right" in his opinion. (How's that for predictability? )

[After reading some of Letters, I've come to think that although I love the man's work and admire him, I would have felt MUCH too self-concious about meeting him in person, lest he should think me a stupid bore, like he did those two women that stayed with them briefly during the war. Because he seemed very critical, I believe that he would have been so of the movies, but I think he had to have been smart enough to realize that if he wanted his work to be a TRUE mythology, it would need to be open to some interpretation. Incidentally, the letter to C.S Lewis about Lewis' "offense" at Tolkien's criticism of one of Lewis' works in progress was quite interesting -- detailing his views on criticism.]

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by azalea
would also have found some pleasure in seeing his characters brought to life, even if they weren't "right" in his opinion.

With all due respect..."in his opinion"? He doesn't even know what his characters should have been like?

I highly doubt that he would appreciated them. He stated that he would loathe changes made to the characters, and that is, quite simply, what was done at least in the case of Pippin, and arguably with others.

[Earniel]

This thread reminds me of the old thread:
would tolkien agree??.

Originally posted by azalea
The only thing I can see about this thread is the predictability of each members' posts.

Neh neh neh. Good one!

[Melko Belcha]

Considering how much Tolkien hated the script written by Morton Bradey Zimmerman, I do not think he would have approved of PJ's script at all. Especialy since he said he would resent any changes to his characters or dialoge in anyway.

[Valandil]

From reading this letters, I imagine that the older JRR Tokien was when he sat down to watch, the less he would like it - and now that he's eleventy-one... Maybe natural enough in the human condition. You'd have to catch him when he's young!

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Valandil
From reading this letters, I imagine that the older JRR Tokien was when he sat down to watch, the less he would like it - and now that he's eleventy-one...

I hadn't realized 2003 was Tolkien's elventy-first birthday year. What a wonderfully appropriate time for the film trilogy of his great work to be completed!!!

[azalea]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
With all due respect..."in his opinion"? He doesn't even know what his characters should have been like?

I'm one of those people who thinks that an author might view his characters differently than they appear to each reader. An author cannot view his work objectively, and he cannot always portray a character through his writing in such a complete way that every reader sees it in an absolute way, without room for interpretation. You'll see many people read stories of all kinds, and when asked what the motivation of a certain character was, or some such ques., they'll likely give a wide variety of answers.

Art, when presented, (IMO) loses the influence of the artist, and becomes the "property" of the viewer (and the artist has no control over this). Tolkien obviously didn't like this fact, as he spent so many years refining, rethinking, etc., the world he'd created. He wanted to present something indisputable, but it is impossible to do, even when dealing with the factual, much less the fantastical.
Hence, although I think Tolkien probably wouldn't have liked the way P & M were portrayed, the instant they appeared on screen I knew who they were, before their first lines were spoken. The scene never happened, they were different than my mental image (generally speaking), and yet the characters have apparently transcended the story. I don't know, but I think that although Tolkien might not have liked that, it (the transcendence)shows his genius as a writer. Yet he seemed unwilling at times to accept his role as an artist (in terms of what I brought up above), but was indeed trying to be an historian. Admirable, but impossible. Even historians of true history cannot present an historical episode about which only one conclusion can be drawn.
That is why I said "in his opinion," because his opinion of his own characters might be different from how I've read them. That being said, I don't think this means that people can justify extreme changes to what's been written and claim that they happened in the story. It's a fine line, but I'll try to give an example:
-- the "wizard's dual" could have happened, because we know that Gandalf was imprisoned by Saruman, but he doesn't tell (at least Tolkien didn't write) the exact details, the mechanics of exactly how they managed to get him up to the top of Orthanc.
-- the "possession of Theoden" by Saruman, on the other hand, was clearly a change made (for good or bad) from the "real" story as written by Tolkien, rather than an interpretation. It is clear from reading the episode that Saruman was never speaking through Theoden in a physical way (ie, that he, from afar, was literally using T.'s bbody to speak, etc., whatever you may think about his non-physical influence, that being somewhat open for interpretation).
I elaborated about this more than I needed to, but that's what I mean when I say "in his opinion." Yes, HE knew how he wanted the characters to be, but once he has decided what he will write about a character, he must allow the reader to build the character in his own mind, using Tolkien's words (that says it really well). What one reader brings to the experience may cause him to see each character in a slightly diff. way, most of which are going to have some variations from what Tolkien intended. So what Tolkien might see as being "right" or "wrong" in terms of dramatization of a character isn't necessarily universal -- he has chosen what he wrote, and if some people see it differently, it's too late to add on, or whatever. And that isn't really a bad thing, IMO. I don't mean generally, I'm refering to details, small things. He would certainly have been nitpicky with his own creation, but IMO the tiny things are trifling. I wouldn't say "Oh, that's wrong" based on a few differences inconsequential to the story, not myself being the creator, unles it were mere observation.
I know a lot of people disagree with this, and believe instead that an author's work is ironclad, and that if he didn't write it, it cannot be a possibility, or that one can only draw certain conclusions about character, themes, etc., based on what the author himself has said or written inside of or outside of the story. This view is perfectly valid, but I happen to hold a different one. Changes no, interpretations yes.
Thus concludes another ent-like post by Azalea.

[Black Breathalizer]

I agree with azalea. Once a writer shares his or her work with another person they cease to own it. Before one of you literalists shoot back, "no way, Tolkien OWNS his story!" I understand copywrite laws. I'm referring to the power of fans to assume in a general way, the ownership of a story. It's clear that many people here feel very, very protective of Tolkien's story. I suspect that new LOTR fans through the films may feel as equally protective of their story in the future. It should be interesting to watch the LOTR fan dynamics once the film series is complete.

[Draken]

Thranduil:

Stretch your scenario to a little earlier. Tolkien sits not in a cinema, but in the Senior Common Room of an Oxford college marking dissertations....


CS Lewis: What ho JRR! Another weekend beckons…fancy a trip into town or some such?

JRR Tolkien: Town, Clive? I think not, I have a viva voce to prepare for and I had promised myself I would sort out the syntax for a Dwarven dialect for Erebor. Why, what had you in mind, old chap?

CSL: Well I was rather looking forward to a trip to the picture house…

JRR: The picture house? Good Lord Clive, you’ll be suggesting we subject ourselves to the purgatory of watching Oxford United next!

CSL: Well United are playing nicely through midfield with a classic combination of physical target man and goal-poaching striker up front…but I digress. Apparently there is to be a screening of a film based on those books of yours. You know, the ones based on purloined Saxon mythology?

JRR: Ah those! A film you say? Rather a cheap, money-grubbing medium, I always thought.

CSL: Well you may say that, but there are a number of films around that one might even call ‘classics’.

JRR: Clive, I never thought I should hear the words ‘classic’ and ‘film’ in the same sentence! You have become most worryingly lowbrow since marrying that Colonial lady, you know….

CSL: Steady on old chap! Look, there has been a tremendous hoo-ha about these films, I really think they’re worth a quick once-over.

JRR: But really, how could it ever work? Picture-goers are jolly decent types I’m sure, but they expect certain things. A cast as big as Ben Hur. Snappy one-liners like in a Humphrey Bogart film. Light relief where people burp and knock things over or other such drollery. Maybe Ingrid Bergman or Grace Kelly for romantic interest…that sort of thing. I hardly see any of my work providing that, eh?

CSL: Well actually old chap this New Zealand fellow has made a few alterations along just those lines. Absolutely thousands of people running around by all accounts, though I understand most of them are mere optical illusions created by some sort of electrical calculating device. And there have been a few changes to cater for snappy one-liners and assorted drollery.

JRR: Hmmm. And the romantic interest?

CSL: Ah one of those nice young ladies with pointy ears seems rather more evident than I recall from your manuscript. The actress is rather a looker I might add. Her pater had a very popular skiffle combo I seem to recollect….

JRR: I see. Well thanks awfully old bean, I’m sure it’s a dashed jolly show and all, but actually Oxford United versus Chesterfield Town is starting to look quite enticing!

[Earniel]

Good one, Draken!

[thranduil]

Draken you read my mind! that is exactly what I wanted to post but I was a little pressed on time as it were. Sorry off subject I don't know jack about CS Lewis but was he around to see the live movie of Lion, Witch, Wardrobe. Is he still around. Well I'm sure he would have alot of complaints about that movie.