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05-24-2006, 06:15 PM | #1 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
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Eru/Fate
On the topic of the Valar and Eru, if Eru hadn't shown them the vision of the World and it's unfolding history, would the Valar have done anything different, or would they still do the same things because Fate was directing the course of history, even with Eru? Or was Eru the creater of Fate along with everything else, and because of this, doesn't have to live by the Rules that He created as much?
I hope we can get a good disscussion out of this.
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05-24-2006, 07:30 PM | #2 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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05-25-2006, 01:22 PM | #3 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
Posts: 2,609
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ok. well, i like to believe that without melkors discord that the good things in the story would last longer and be better, and that because of him not upseting the music, whether he would either a) forget his pride and anger and go back to the good side, or b) retain a bit of his evilness and bitterness, but make it like thingols and feanors respectively.
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05-25-2006, 02:36 PM | #4 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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05-25-2006, 02:52 PM | #5 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
Posts: 2,609
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i think that by the time Eru had made the Song, He knew it was already too late for Melkor to redem himself "But being alone he had began to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his breathen." So in knowing this, He just left it to be because there was nothing he could do about it. And also, of course, it proves that even before Ea was made, evil was already manifesting itself.
A question to ask ourself is what if Melkor had supressed his pride, sang about good things in the creation song, but turned truely evil after it had finished? Plus, would the elves, men etc have still been created if there had been no discord within the Music?
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05-25-2006, 03:56 PM | #6 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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I think Elves, Men, etc would have still been created especially had there been no discord in the Music, because that was the plan, and inspite of Melkor causing discord, the plan proceeded anyway.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-14-2006, 07:46 PM | #7 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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And Iluvatar spoke to Ulrmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province ? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost ! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists ; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth ! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.' Then Ulrmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwe, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!' And Manwe and Ulrno have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Iluvatar. The conception of the other Auinu was more symmetrical. All angles and plains, rectangular oceans and triangular poles and everlasting lamps and no darkness. They probably originally concieved of rows upon rose of uniformed trees for a forest etc. ( I think I had a goog reference for that in the one those other Tolkien books too). Without Melkor there would be no snow capped mountains and no natural bridges formed by the erosion of the sea; in the world of tolkien without the destruction of the lamps there would have been no sun or the moon. Alas, further proof: And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive. And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwe the answers of Feanor to his heralds, Manwe wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Feanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.' But Mandos said: 'And yet remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon.' Just as president bush and his masters ( for he is just a puppet) gain there one world government, through the human spirit it will become something of pure good and become his undoing, even as they grasp it for their evil purposes (just like lord palpitine in star wars-he is playing both sides/wake up people; he is the terrorists as well as the federal government). The human spirit can not be distinguished. So as america and the constitution was a great creation, slavery still remained evil. Bush and his masters will pay soon, there time is coming; all evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing; can I get an amen!!!
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 06-14-2006 at 07:51 PM. |
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06-15-2006, 01:48 AM | #8 | |||
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