By land, air, and sea!

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I have seen threads on "What if the Fellowship to a sea route?" "What if they went this way nto that way!?" I was wondering, and pardon me if this has ben brought up before, if it would have been easier to take a passage by air. As we all know by modern warfair, those whole rule the sky's rule the war. So if maybe one Elf, or one Hobbit, took to the back of Gwaihir, flew to the pinicale of Mt. Doom, and then cast the ring from there, would the war not be over sooner and safer? I understand the Nazgul would have their Fell beasts but in accordance with those Elrond and Co. could trick the eye's of Mordor as Aragorn did at the Black Gates.
As I see it, after the counsil of Elrond, Aragorn and Boromir would travel to Gondor and Rohan to gather a force, Gimli could return to Erabor, and Legolas to Mirkwood, they could muster a force to counter Mordor and Dul Guldur alng with Lorien and Imladris. Gondor/Rohan would be the main focus of attack for Mordor as was in the book but with all the peoples of ME acting as one it will keep all eyes off One hobbit, on One Eagle. Also the remaining eagle army could defend agasint the Nazgul and the Fell beasts.
Yet as I read my theory one strange question springs up in my mind, would Gwaihir have desired the ring? Could there have been a Eagle Lord of the Ring!? So... what do you think of this Airborne means of attack!? Could it work!? And what of Gwaihir?
Also feel free to discuse other means of getting the task done, as the title says, by land air and sea, so what other means sound like a better game plan!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I to have asked this question before being told that it was nonsense and wouldn't succed.

[BeardofPants]

Doubtfully. The whole purpose of the mission wasn't to ring the doorbell and alert sauron to the fact that the ring had been found, and was in possession of Frodo. It would have been just too risky....

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Sauron knew that the ring was found. Thats why the nazgul were dispatched! Do you think that the nine were randomly released on the shire!? Of course not, anything ta that point was risky, a fellowship walking to mordor was more risky than anything i can think of. Frodo moving with great spead and great stealth upon an eagle would be easier and quicker and safer than anything else. The attention would have been pulled of Frodo and the eagle by the armies of ME! Ring the doorbell you say, inevitably that is what Tolkien did have them do! Aragorn rang the doorbell at the black gates! So the airial plan would not be the "Hello I'm Here!" tactic you seem to think it'd be, after all, Sauron knew the ring was found, he had Gollum, he sent the nine to recover the ring in the Shire, his eye was then fixed on Imladris! Once the council was formed Sauron was already laying down plans to get the ring from them!

[Radagast The Brown]

Halbarad, I'm sure Sauron could see the eagles coming. He might even not be able to stop them when they're flying, if the Nazgul weren't there, but if he guards the Mountain, knowing they'll go there, they'll have no chance to ruin the Ring. While in our story, Suaron didn't know of the Fellowship, or thought they were going to try to ruin the Ring - he thought they were going to fight over it and try to use it against him.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

If his eye can see such a broad span then surley he could see two hobbits walking past his own land and thru it. I don't expect The council to tell Sauron, hey we're sending eagles! The main host of men, elves, dwarves, and eagles will be somehwere else! Gwhair flys far south then up the harad region, and to Ordruin from the south. If Sauron beleived that Aragorn or Elrond or aomeone else of the "war" diversion had the ring he would put all forces to defend and attack them. If he thought they had the ring, one eagle flying south, even if he could see it, would be of no importance to him. He would not know the errand of the eagle, so it would be essentialy the same, only quicker and safer.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Sauron knew that the ring was found. Thats why the nazgul were dispatched! .... blah blah blah

Halbarad, can you stop yelling... I'm not deaf you know! (Oh wait, yes I am. )

I know that Sauron already knew that the ring had been found. Sheesh. Keep your pants on. (unless of course you want to give them to me.) The point is that by air, you can be seen for miles off. On the ground, you'd stick out no more than an ant would. Mordor was well guarded. How do you propose to have the party swoop down without being taken down by either the nazgul, or some other fell creature? The whole point on having Aragorn's party ring the doorbell was so that the backdoor would be not be watched, that is true. But there is a difference between a small hobbit (and remember hobbit's have the ability to not be seen when they want, this is why hobbits were so important in the war of the ring, and the plundering of smaug) slipping through the back door, and a giant ruddy eagle swooping down towards Mt. Doom which is only a stone's throw from Sauron's place of leisure...

[trolls' bane]

I agree with both of you (this is about the time the sheep should come in and shout "Four legs good, two legs bad"). But to do so, I would have to combine both of your theories. I think that it would be a good idea to fly to Mordor, but not all the way to Mt Doom. Perhaps dropping off the hobits near the Sea of Nurnen, thus avoiding Saruman, and Merry and Pippin's imprisonment, but unfortunately Gandalf the Grey would suffer not becoming the White. Or, better yet, fly in, but, if it was possible, the joined armies of the Dwarves of Erebor/Elves of the Lonely Mountain attack Sauron from the top/back, some of Gondor goes and attacks the south, the rest of Gondor and Rohan attack from the front, so while Sauron is occupying his time with that, the eagles fly in without them being noted, and it's all over, at least for sauron, I guess.

[Michael Martinez]

Using the Eagles of the Misty Mountains to dive-bomb Mordor with the One Ring was never an option for the Council of Elrond. This absurd topic has been whittled to the bone across thousands of discussions. There was no one at the council who had the authority to speak on behalf of the Eagles and even when Elrond and Aragorn sent out their scouts, no one was able to locate Radagast, so he never contributed anything else to the cause.

Gandalf's relationship with the Eagles was a personal one, not a professional one -- that is, his task was not to coordinate Ents and Eagles in their efforts against Sauron, but rather to help Men and Elves resist Sauron.

There was no way the Eagles were going to be involved in the story at that point. It was a complete, total impossible, and no amount of wishful WHAT IF rationalization can even come close to altering the boundaries of the tale which Tolkien provided.

The Eagles were not an option, not a possibility, not an underutilized resource, not involved, not there for the sake of dropping Rings of Power into volcanoes, not charged with solving a problem created by the Elves, not responsible for bringing Rings of Power to Mordor, nor in the least bit aware of the location of the Ring or the necessity to destroy, much less predisposed to participate in, propose, or carry out any actions against Mordor which would have pre-empted all the choices that had yet to be made by the Free Peoples.

[Attalus]

Yeah, what he said.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Using the Eagles of the Misty Mountains to dive-bomb Mordor with the One Ring was never an option for the Council of Elrond. This absurd topic has been whittled to the bone across thousands of discussions. There was no one at the council who had the authority to speak on behalf of the Eagles and even when Elrond and Aragorn sent out their scouts, no one was able to locate Radagast, so he never contributed anything else to the cause.

I don't know that its absurd. While I agree that for all sorts of reasons, the eagles were not an option, I don't think that the topic is absurd. After all no representitive of the Ents or the Woses was at the Council either, yet they played their parts in the War and so in the Quest.

Gandalf's relationship with the Eagles was a personal one, not a professional one -- that is, his task was not to coordinate Ents and Eagles in their efforts against Sauron, but rather to help Men and Elves resist Sauron.

I always thought it was to coordinate the Free Peoples of Middle Earth--so then the question is whether or not the Eagles of the Misty Mtns and the Ents and huorns count as "Free Peoples" or not.

The Eagles were not an option, not a possibility, not an underutilized resource, not involved, not there for the sake of dropping Rings of Power into volcanoes, not charged with solving a problem created by the Elves, not responsible for bringing Rings of Power to Mordor, nor in the least bit aware of the location of the Ring or the necessity to destroy, much less predisposed to participate in, propose, or carry out any actions against Mordor which would have pre-empted all the choices that had yet to be made by the Free Peoples.

Well, the claim is interesting, and for the most part I agree with the conclusion. But the point of the discussion from our end is to show WHY this is so, not merely to declare it. I think Attalus, Val, and others have done an adequate job of doing just this, so I'll not repeat their comments here. But I have difficulty with just declaring something is so, because....

FB

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I don't know that its absurd. While I agree that for all sorts of reasons, the eagles were not an option, I don't think that the topic is absurd. After all no representitive of the Ents or the Woses was at the Council either, yet they played their parts in the War and so in the Quest.

They also happened to live in the path of the Fellowship. The Eagles did not, and thus played no part until the very end, when of their own volition they provided support to the Army of the West.

I always thought it was to coordinate the Free Peoples of Middle Earth--so then the question is whether or not the Eagles of the Misty Mtns and the Ents and huorns count as "Free Peoples" or not.

From "The Istari" in UNFINISHED TALES:

...Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar, who who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

Nothing about "coordinating" anyone, much less Ents and Eagles.

Well, the claim is interesting, and for the most part I agree with the conclusion. But the point of the discussion from our end is to show WHY this is so, not merely to declare it.

The why cannot be shown, since none of us speak for Tolkien. One can only point out the obvious.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

They also happened to live in the path of the Fellowship. The Eagles did not, and thus played no part until the very end, when of their own volition they provided support to the Army of the West.

Who? The Wose? The Ents? Which "they" do you speak of here? As for the Eagles, might I remind you that BEFORE the Fellowship left Rivendell messengers/lookouts did go to the Eagles of the Misty Mountains and sought news, and the Eagles had none to tell. See the 2.3 The Ring Goes South: "Even from the Eagles of the Misty Mountains they learned nothing." The fact that Elrond's messengers knew where to find the Eagles, knew to speak to them, brings up the question under consideration.

From "The Istari" in UNFINISHED TALES:

Nothing about "coordinating" anyone, much less Ents and Eagles.

Ah, I see the problem for you is the word "coordinate" which I took from your penultimate post in the first place. So let's say this: Gandalf's mission was "to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." Now in your penultimate post of 10-03 you say, "that is, his task was not to coordinate Ents and Eagles in their efforts against Sauron, but rather to help Men and Elves resist Sauron." It seems to me that Tolkien himself says your wrong unless you want to try and argue that Sauron would not seek to dominate and corrupt Eagles, Ents, Woses, Hobbits, and Dwarves since your claim seems to say that Gandalf's mission to "to help Men and Elves." I'll side with Tolkien on this one.

The why cannot be shown, since none of us speak for Tolkien. One can only point out the obvious.

Oh please. If its that obvious then the why is in plain sight. As you know well this question has been asked and discussed on every Tolkien board in existance and in print. IF it is so obvious there would be no need to ask the question. This is mere escapism on your part, in my view.

FB

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

...The fact that Elrond's messengers knew where to find the Eagles, knew to speak to them, brings up the question under consideration...

My biggest problem with the 'Eagle Intervention' possibility is that it would have made for a VERY boring story. I mean... this whole Middle Earth thing just would NOT have caught on! Just try writing it that way (anyone!) and see how it comes out...

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Who? The Wose? The Ents? Which "they" do you speak of here?

The only "they" I mentioned, obviously.

And there is no textual evidence of any contact between Elrond's messengers and the Eagles of the Misty Mountains. In fact, all contact between Eagles and everyone OTHER than Radagast was stipulated by Tolkien to be iniiated by the Eagles themselves.

Ah, I see the problem for you is the word "coordinate" which I took from your penultimate post in the first place.

You neglected to also take "NOT TO" with the coordinate.

So let's say this: Gandalf's mission was "to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."

Which is NOT TO coordinate.

Since I'm not disagreeing with Tolkien, obviously, you are in the wrong.

Oh please. If its that obvious then the why is in plain sight.

Wrong again. The "why" is never in plain sight, since we don't know why Tolkien made the choices he made except where he explained himself.

And he never anticipated the need to address the question of why the Eagles didn't fly the Ring to Mount Doom and drop it in.