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02-15-2019, 11:33 PM | #1 |
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Who Knew About Frodo’s Ring?
It’s quiet. Too quiet. So on to something new.
Who knew about Frodo’s Ring? This is a follow-on to the earlier thread, “Who Knew about Bilbo’s Ring?” Starting from the end of The Hobbit, I think we can begin to track who knew about Frodo’s odd inheritance from Bilbo. Just to review: Bilbo told the Dwarves, though not the whole truth about how he got it: he told them Gollum gave it to him as a present. (That’s the original version in early editions of The Hobbit, btw.) He also told Gandalf, though how much he told Gandalf is unclear; but I think that by the time Gandalf and Bilbo reached Rivendell in the spring of the year after the Battle of Five Armies, the wizard knew most of the story directly from Bilbo, and was able correctly surmise whatever was left out either intentionally or “accidentally on purpose.” In fact, I think the Elvenking’s parting comments to Bilbo indicate that either Gandalf told him, too, or else he’d figured it. (See the aforementioned thread for more.) There can be little doubt that Gandalf soon told Elrond, probably while he tarried at Rivendell with Bilbo, or else soon after: not consulting Elrond would be a grave error: they were both Keepers of the Three, and the discovery of another Great Ring affected both of them both personally and “professionally.” I think there is reason to believe the survivors of Thorin & Co. told Dáin Ironfoot, but what they could tell him was probably limited and perhaps garbled; at any rate, they knew little except that it existed and that it made Bilbo invisible; and for this discussion, it is not significant, other than that Dáin and his counselors gave no indication to Sauron’s emissary (one of the Nine?) that they knew anything, if indeed they did. So let’s start with how things stood at the end of Bilbo’s Farewell Party. We know Bilbo told Frodo: Frodo tells Gandalf that himself in their conversation at Bag End shortly after the Farewell Party. (“A Long-expected Party”) That happened soon after Frodo moved to Bag End with Bilbo in III Age 2989 (Shire Reckoning 1389), twelve years before the Farewell Party. The year before the Farewell Party, Merry sees Bilbo use the Ring to avoid the Sackville-Bagginses. (“Conspiracy Unmasked”) By this time, I imagine both Gandalf and Elrond communicated with Galadriel about the Ring. They might not have yet known which of the Great Rings it was, but they knew it had to be one of the Seven – or the One. I cannot imagine that Galadriel withheld that information from her partner and consort for more than two Ages of Middle-earth, Celeborn. So at this point, we can add Frodo, Merry, Galadriel, and Celeborn to our count. And now, we have the Farewell Party. W00t! W00t! |
02-17-2019, 10:24 AM | #2 |
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Interesting.
And by the time Frodo leaves Bag End, the other "conspirators" all know: Pippin, Sam & Fatty Bolger. One thing makes me wonder... if Gandalf had told Elrond and they eventually told Galadriel - it almost seems like eventually, over the 70+ years, that at least one of them would be insistent that Gandalf look into it and verify just which Ring it was. Especially once Sauron had revealed himself. On the other hand - Gandalf had never told Saruman. Perhaps he never told Elrond or Galadriel either, but just decided to keep it to himself and keep watch. The Dwarves of Erebor could have been the "weak link"... with the whole company knowing SOMEthing, the story likely spread somewhat among the community. At least among their immediate families (at least half were connected with the royal family though, as I recall). With someone coming to make an offer like Sauron's emissary did (I favor the Mouth of Sauron), did any younger Dwarf, who happened to know something, feel tempted to give what information he knew in exchange for a Dwarven Ring? But apparently, either Dain had good enough control of the situation, or nobody was so bold and foolish, or the company of Dwarves just didn't share that secret around.
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02-25-2019, 08:24 AM | #3 | ||
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That Bilbo had a Ring of Power may have been evident to Elrond when they stayed in Rivendell, without Gandalf's prompting. He's a Ringbearer already in his own right, and I vaguely remember Galadriel hinting at one Ringbearer having an inkling of another. Although that may have been strictly among the Three. I forget. But Bilbo's state, when he eventually retired to Rivendell after having handed the Ring to Frodo, may have clued Elrond in regardless. Elrond's a healer; an ancient Hobbit, old beyond the normal lifespan, ought to have raised questions. Quote:
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02-24-2019, 05:17 AM | #4 |
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Thank you, Valandil.
Let’s address Fatty Bolger and get up to Frodo’s arrival in Rivendell. Soon after Bilbo’s Farewell Party, Gandalf spoke to Aragorn of his concerns about Bilbo’s Ring. As an aside here, people often complain that Gandalf was dumb because he failed to recognize Bilbo’s Ring for what it was: the Ruling Ring. They surmise that he was negligent, or sloppy, or had some other character flaw. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I remember going to a superb physician once: I was extremely ill, and he correctly diagnosed my condition. (I’d been to lots of good physicians, but this was his specialty and it was an odd situation) Then I remember he said, “Now I have to prove it.” (Six words you don’t really want to hear the physician say: It means he’s going to torture you. At the same time of course, you do want to hear them: You have the opportunity to get well, and I did get well.) Gandalf had to prove that Bilbo’s Ring was the One Ring, and not another. Guessing, however well intended or informed, would not do. I think he came north to the Shire as soon as he learned from Isildur’s scroll in Denethor’s library trove how to positively identify the Ring: put it into a fire and heat it. In the meantime, Gollum wandered to the borders of Mordor, eventually entering Mordor, willingly or unwillingly. From Gollum, Sauron learned that “Baggins” had the Ring, and that “Baggins” was in “Shire”. Sauron told the Nazgûl and sent them to re-acquire his property. Separately, Saruman determined that Gandalf and the Rangers were guarding something valuable in the Shire. He had been spying on Gandalf anyway. Either on his own, or because of Sauron’s queries and searches, he also learned the Ring was in the Shire. Whether or not he knew about “Baggins” is unclear, but probably not: otherwise, he’d have gone after “Baggins” himself! Sam found out about the Ring. Exactly how, we aren’t told: Merry talked to Sam and recruited him into keeping an eye on Frodo; but Sam may already have known about the Ring on his own, learned of it from Merry, or learned of it eavesdropping on Gandalf and Frodo. Merry also recruited Pippin and Freddy, and told them about the Ring: Merry, Freddy, and Pippin were Frodo’s closest friends (as well as his cousins) before Frodo and Sam bonded in their joint baptism of misery and terror. Along the way to Bree, Frodo and his companions met Tom Bombadil, revealed to Bombadil the One Ring, and even gave Bombadil the Ring. Bombadil no doubt told Goldberry, too. When Elrond learned from Gildor’s messengers that the Nazgûl were in Eriador searching for Frodo, he told Glorfindel and sent him to look for Frodo and his companions. (Glorfindel indicates that Elrond told at least two other Elves: we aren’t told who they were, but like Glorfindel, they too could face the Nazgûl alone and unaided.) I don’t think Aragorn shared his knowledge of the whereabouts of the Ruling Ring with the rest of the Dúnedain: the less widely dispersed information, the less likely it is to be revealed to an Enemy; however, it is clear that by the time Frodo left Hobbiton, Sauron and the Nazgûl already knew; but Gildor did not know, I think the Dúnedain were unaware as well. I think the network of information looks something like this when Frodo is facing the Nazgûl at the Ford of Bruinen. |
03-24-2019, 02:36 AM | #5 | ||
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The entry for Third Age 3001 reads, Bilbo's farewell feast. Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn.We might consider that from at least that point forward, Elrond and Galadriel were also aware of Gandalf’s suspicions, if for no other reason than he or Aragorn might be killed or captured in the venture: the stakes were simply too high at that point. From at least that point, Elrond and Galadriel would be able to seriously contemplate having the Ring within their grasp, how they might respond, and begin forming a plan about how to keep it from Sauron. But you may be correct, Eärniel, that Gandalf still said nothing: when the Company of the Ring reached Lórien, no one, not even Aragorn, knew what he had planned afterwards. When summoned before Celeborn a second time (beginning of “Farewell to Lórien”), Aragorn told Celeborn and Galadriel, “Beyond Lothlórien I do not know what Gandalf intended to do. Indeed I do not think that even he had any clear purpose.” Were I to vote, I’d vote that Gandalf spoke to Elrond; but Elrond might in turn have sent word to Saruman. And I agree that Elrond must have suspected a Great Ring at work in Bilbo’s extended age. Aragorn would surely have spoken to Elrond, his beloved foster-father, unless Gandalf warned him not to; and there is Arwen to consider, who was in Aragorn’s complete confidence and surely his closest councilor: she would also tell her father. As for Elrond, he was as aware as Gandalf that “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still.” Can we reasonably doubt that Elrond knew from Third Age 3001 onwards? |
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03-25-2019, 01:04 PM | #6 | |
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“In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.”So Bilbo has a magic ring that makes him invisible. Hmm. Well, the Noldor of Hollin made “many Elven-rings … of various kinds: some more potent and some less.” I suppose that must include rings that could make the wearer invisible. No doubt they were never in general circulation, and after 4600 years had become even scarcer; but Elven-rings probably had a lasting quality. It would seem from Gandalf’s remarks that maybe Bilbo’s was not the first Elven-ring he had encountered among mortals, at least not the only one he’d heard of. Bilbo tells the Dwarves about his ring, and he tells Gandalf, though at first he tells neither of them the truth about how he got it. Gandalf “at last got the truth out of him,” and “saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his ‘birthday present’.” We don’t know how long that took, but it probably happened on the way Lake-town back to Bag End. After that, Gandalf accompanied Bilbo right to his front door! “[Bilbo and Gandalf] crossed the bridge and passed the mill by the river and came right back to Bilbo’s own door.”There is no mention of whether Gandalf stayed to enjoy the festivities as Bilbo interrupted the estate auction underway by Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes. In “Who Knew about Bilbo’s Ring?”, I asked, “How did Gandalf know it was a Great Ring … from the first? He doesn’t say.” Well I was wrong: he does say: “Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once. ... [T]he years passed..., and they seemed not to touch him. He showed no signs of age. ... [T]hat night when he left this house[, h]e said and did things then that filled me with a fear that no words of Saruman could allay. I knew at last that something dark and deadly was at work. And I have spent most of the years since then in finding out the truth of it.”Does it make sense that Gandalf assumed Bilbo’s ring was one of the many lesser Elven-rings, and that he was convinced that it was a Great Ring by Bilbo’s uncharacteristic lying about how he found it and his interactions with Gollum (which make much more sense that Gollum’s gift of a “present”), his failure to age, and his unwonted hostile reaction toward Gandalf following the Long-Awaited Party. After all, assuming that Bilbo possessed – and was nearly possessed by – Sauron’s long-lost Ruling Ring does seem quite the conceit, even for a wizard. That should be obvious, I guess: Maybe I’ve become inured to some of the wonder of the story. |
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04-03-2019, 09:38 AM | #7 | |||||
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Or maybe Sauron didn't expect the Dwarves to talk directly to him, but just needed to shake them up a bit. Talk of Bilbo's Ring may not have been common, but stirring up talk of Sauron's emissary and his promisses or threats to Dale and the Mountain may have been a worthy task on its own. Shake a bag of rats and see where they run to hide. It unsettled Da*n enough to seek out Elrond's counsel. It may have convinced others of less noble intentions that the Dark Lord was again becoming a significant player on the nations' playing field and that spying for them may be a good carreer move. Quote:
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If Gandalf suspected Bilbo's ring was the One Ring, and if the known effects he was expecting from such a powerful thing didn't manifest in Bilbo when they would have in Men, wouldn't that argue for the case that Bilbo's ring was not the One Ring, but rather one of the (apparently sufficiently numerous) lesser magical rings? |
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04-05-2019, 09:58 PM | #8 | ||||||
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Since Thráin’s ring was never recovered, the Dwarves also legitimately ask, what of Bilbo’s ring, this “least of rings.” Why all the fuss? Might it be Thráin’s ring? (I expect Glóin would have made an immediate but polite demand that Frodo turn Thráin’s ring over immediately. It doesn’t sound as if he wanted Sauron’s ring!) And if not, why is it so important? Good questions: smart Dwarves. Quote:
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───◊─── I think this is a fair representation of how matters stood at the end of the Council of Elrond. How says the ’Moot? Would Aragorn tell Halbarad, who acted as steward or marshal of Arnor? |
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04-08-2019, 07:33 AM | #9 | |||
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I am wondering whether Gandalf would have told Thranduil. Sindarin Elves had less to do with the Rings than the Elves of Noldorin descent and may not find them so significant. But Thranduil was involved to keep Gollum contained and I realise I don't remember enough of that part to determine whether Thranduil could have been told. A re-read may be in order. |
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09-28-2019, 03:01 AM | #10 | ||
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Let us complete this exercise. After the Council of Elrond, at least six more people learned that Frodo possessed the Ruling Ring. Not necessarily in the order in which they found out, these are
The final sketch looks like this: |
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09-28-2019, 09:27 AM | #11 |
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Very nice work. At first look, all your conclusions seem sound and complete. I'll stew on it a little.
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