What Was the Purpose of the 2 Blue Wizards

ItalianLegolas · 12-05-2004, 06:05 PM

In one of the books, Tolkien states that along with Gandalf(the Grey), Saruman(the White) and Radagast(the Brown)
came 2 un-named wizards, and all that we know about them is that they were robed in blue, so the obvious question is, what was the purpose of the 2 Blue wizards, because they are never mentioned in the core LoTR books, and is never mentioned by either Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast. So i would like to hear your ideas...

Elemmírë · 12-05-2004, 06:34 PM

An interesting question, I think.

This is, of course, mere conjecture, and I could easily be proven wrong by anyone with more knowledge of HoME.

Gandalf (and arguably Radagast, though to a lesser degree) was the only wizard to remain loyal to the cause that the Valar had given them. He was the only one to stand beside the people of Middle Earth against Sauron in the war at the end of the Third Age.

Making him the only one out of 3 wizards, to me, doesn't have as much of an impact as making him the only one out of 5. If 4 fell two inaction (and in Saruman's case, opposition), to me it speaks more for the difficulty of their task, even for Maiar, than if only 2 were disloyal (again, Radagast can be debated).

It's the only idea I can come up with, at present.

Anyone else...

btw, I have no documentation, but I've seen in at least one forum the names "Pallando" and "Alatar" given to the blue wizards. Are these real names?

ps... welcome to the Moot, ItalianLegolas! Hope you enjoy it!

Attalus · 12-05-2004, 06:51 PM

The two Blue Wizards, Alatair and Pallandro, were said by JRRT in the Letters to have gone into the East, presumably to Harad or the environs, and further were said to have failed. I don't have the reference at hand, but a few moments work with the Index should turn them up.

Gwaimir Windgem · 01-04-2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

An interesting question, I think.

This is, of course, mere conjecture, and I could easily be proven wrong by anyone with more knowledge of HoME.

Gandalf (and arguably Radagast, though to a lesser degree) was the only wizard to remain loyal to the cause that the Valar had given them. He was the only one to stand beside the people of Middle Earth against Sauron in the war at the end of the Third Age.

Making him the only one out of 3 wizards, to me, doesn't have as much of an impact as making him the only one out of 5. If 4 fell two inaction (and in Saruman's case, opposition), to me it speaks more for the difficulty of their task, even for Maiar, than if only 2 were disloyal (again, Radagast can be debated).

It's the only idea I can come up with, at present.

Anyone else...

btw, I have no documentation, but I've seen in at least one forum the names "Pallando" and "Alatar" given to the blue wizards. Are these real names?

ps... welcome to the Moot, ItalianLegolas! Hope you enjoy it!

My understanding is that Tolkien's later thoughts were that they organized a resistance in the East against Sauron?

Pallando and Alatar were their "Valinorean names", as I understand it; I remember reading somewhere their Mannish equivalents, but where, I don't know. I'd like to see them again.

Wayfarer · 12-05-2004, 07:08 PM

The purpose of the Blue Wizards was the same as the purpose of the other three.

ItalianLegolas · 12-05-2004, 07:40 PM

In Radagast's case, i think, it was more of a case of blind trust/stupidity(they may be the same), as opposed to inaction/un-loyalness to the cause.
in response to Wayfarer, if it is true that they went into the East, is it not also possible that they, like Saruman were turned from there good ways and into the Dark-Lords service? Is it also possible, that maybe they came to rule Harad? or did they return to the West with their task unfinished?

Wayfarer · 12-05-2004, 07:48 PM

BeardofPants · 12-06-2004, 01:10 AM

Been a few threads on these guys. A quick search will turn up the threads, and the sources.

BeardofPants · 12-06-2004, 01:17 AM

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...&threadid=6793
http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...Wizards+colors
http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?s=...ht=blue+wizard

***Valandil*** · 12-06-2004, 07:44 AM

Wayfarer is correct as far as the 'Purpose Statement' goes.

For the names, and a bit more information, there's a section of 'Unfinished Tales' that can be of interest. Appropriately enough, a chapter called 'The Istari'.

Tolkien actually speculates in a couple different directions about them - if he ever made up his mind for sure, I don't know which one he settled on. One - that they either became ineffective or were the source of 'false religions' in the eastern parts of Middle Earth, by which we might guess that the people there were more easily ensnared by Sauron. The other - that they WERE effective and faithful to their purpose - with a sort of 'who knows how bad things would have been without them' kind of statement.

In any case, I believe there's mention someplace that the two went into the east with Saruman, and that he eventually returned alone. Say

... you don't suppose that HE might have

...

Last Child of Ungoliant · 01-22-2005, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

In one of the books, Tolkien states that along with Gandalf(the Grey), Saruman(the White) and Radagast(the Brown)
came 2 un-named wizards, and all that we know about them is that they were robed in blue, so the obvious question is, what was the purpose of the 2 Blue wizards, because they are never mentioned in the core LoTR books, and is never mentioned by either Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast. So i would like to hear your ideas...

the purposes of all 5 istari was the succour of men and elves in their struggles against sauron, without seeking to dominate by force or power, and so i would say that is the only answer suitable for this question.

Pytt · 01-23-2005, 12:36 PM

Yeah, that is the definite answer to it, Chrys.

ItalianLegolas · 01-23-2005, 09:35 PM

well, that is the answer, but what did they do to better the lives of Men, Hobbits,Elves,Dwarves and all the other races of Middle-Earth? What did they do to thwart Sauron in his attempt for world-domination?

Lenya · 01-29-2005, 08:37 AM

Well Saruman didn't do much at the end cause he went over to the dark side. Gandalf did his bits here and there, like making Frodo take the ring to Rivendell and helping him further on his journey. He also counseled Aragorn and destroyed the Balrog. I don't know what Radagast or the other did but I'm sure they pushed here and pulled there to set things in motion.

ItalianLegolas · 01-29-2005, 09:06 AM

Gandalf did way more then a little bit, he was, as they say (somewhere) "the architect of Saurons downfall"

Last Child of Ungoliant · 01-29-2005, 09:46 AM

radagast sought to persuade birds and beasts to become friends of men elves and dwarves

12-05-2004, 06:05 PM	#1
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	What Was the Purpose of the 2 Blue Wizards In one of the books, Tolkien states that along with Gandalf(the Grey), Saruman(the White) and Radagast(the Brown) came 2 un-named wizards, and all that we know about them is that they were robed in blue, so the obvious question is, what was the purpose of the 2 Blue wizards, because they are never mentioned in the core LoTR books, and is never mentioned by either Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast. So i would like to hear your ideas...

12-05-2004, 06:34 PM	#2
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	An interesting question, I think. This is, of course, mere conjecture, and I could easily be proven wrong by anyone with more knowledge of HoME. Gandalf (and arguably Radagast, though to a lesser degree) was the only wizard to remain loyal to the cause that the Valar had given them. He was the only one to stand beside the people of Middle Earth against Sauron in the war at the end of the Third Age. Making him the only one out of 3 wizards, to me, doesn't have as much of an impact as making him the only one out of 5. If 4 fell two inaction (and in Saruman's case, opposition), to me it speaks more for the difficulty of their task, even for Maiar, than if only 2 were disloyal (again, Radagast can be debated). It's the only idea I can come up with, at present. Anyone else... btw, I have no documentation, but I've seen in at least one forum the names "Pallando" and "Alatar" given to the blue wizards. Are these real names? ps... welcome to the Moot, ItalianLegolas! Hope you enjoy it! __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 12-05-2004 at 06:35 PM.

12-05-2004, 06:51 PM	#3
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	The two Blue Wizards, Alatair and Pallandro, were said by JRRT in the Letters to have gone into the East, presumably to Harad or the environs, and further were said to have failed. I don't have the reference at hand, but a few moments work with the Index should turn them up. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-05-2004, 07:08 PM	#5
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	The purpose of the Blue Wizards was the same as the purpose of the other three. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-05-2004, 07:48 PM	#7
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Yes. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-05-2004, 07:40 PM	#6
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	In Radagast's case, i think, it was more of a case of blind trust/stupidity(they may be the same), as opposed to inaction/un-loyalness to the cause. in response to Wayfarer, if it is true that they went into the East, is it not also possible that they, like Saruman were turned from there good ways and into the Dark-Lords service? Is it also possible, that maybe they came to rule Harad? or did they return to the West with their task unfinished?

12-06-2004, 01:10 AM	#8
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Been a few threads on these guys. A quick search will turn up the threads, and the sources. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

12-06-2004, 01:17 AM	#9
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...&threadid=6793 http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...Wizards+colors http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?s=...ht=blue+wizard __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

12-06-2004, 07:44 AM	#10
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Wayfarer is correct as far as the 'Purpose Statement' goes. For the names, and a bit more information, there's a section of 'Unfinished Tales' that can be of interest. Appropriately enough, a chapter called 'The Istari'. Tolkien actually speculates in a couple different directions about them - if he ever made up his mind for sure, I don't know which one he settled on. One - that they either became ineffective or were the source of 'false religions' in the eastern parts of Middle Earth, by which we might guess that the people there were more easily ensnared by Sauron. The other - that they WERE effective and faithful to their purpose - with a sort of 'who knows how bad things would have been without them' kind of statement. In any case, I believe there's mention someplace that the two went into the east with Saruman, and that he eventually returned alone. Say ... you don't suppose that HE might have ... __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 12-06-2004 at 07:45 AM.

01-23-2005, 12:36 PM	#12
Pytt The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: trondheim, norway Posts: 1,388	Yeah, that is the definite answer to it, Chrys. __________________ Don't Panic!

01-23-2005, 09:35 PM	#13
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	well, that is the answer, but what did they do to better the lives of Men, Hobbits,Elves,Dwarves and all the other races of Middle-Earth? What did they do to thwart Sauron in his attempt for world-domination? __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-29-2005, 08:37 AM	#14
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	Well Saruman didn't do much at the end cause he went over to the dark side. Gandalf did his bits here and there, like making Frodo take the ring to Rivendell and helping him further on his journey. He also counseled Aragorn and destroyed the Balrog. I don't know what Radagast or the other did but I'm sure they pushed here and pulled there to set things in motion.

01-29-2005, 09:06 AM	#15
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	Gandalf did way more then a little bit, he was, as they say (somewhere) "the architect of Saurons downfall" __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-29-2005, 09:46 AM	#16
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	radagast sought to persuade birds and beasts to become friends of men elves and dwarves

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