Moria naming error?

[Rían]

I was reading thru some Tolkien websites and came across an intriguing question pointing out a possible slip on JRRT's part (it's so tempting to try and find them!) -

If the Elves of Hollin were friendly with Durin's folk in Khazad-dum, and the name Moria (black chasm/pit) wasn't given until many years later, why does it say "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" on the doors?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I was reading thru some Tolkien websites and came across an intriguing question pointing out a possible slip on JRRT's part (it's so tempting to try and find them!) -

If the Elves of Hollin were friendly with Durin's folk in Khazad-dum, and the name Moria (black chasm/pit) wasn't given until many years later, why does it say "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" on the doors?

The Elves of Holin were (among other things) practical jokers. Moria was an inside joke which was misunderstood by the Dwarfs and lead to a series of misunderstandings between elfs and dwarfs.

(I really do not have a better reason than that.)

[trolls' bane]

Sounds good enough for me.

[Valandil]

Probably just a bit of liberality with the translation... those gathered knew the place as 'Moria', so Gandalf translated it as Moria??

(or do the letters on the picture spell out 'Moria' in Elvish... probably do, don't they?)

[Rían]

that's what I thought at first, but then remembered the letters on the picture spell Moria in Elvish! (I had translated JRRT's picture myself before and remembered)

[Artanis]

Does it say anywhere that the name Moria was given many years later than the death of Celebrimbor?

The Elves of Hollin were friends with the Dwarves, but that didn't stop them of making their own names of the mountains, and presumably not of Khazad-Dum either. Though the name was given without love, I don't think it was given with malice. To the Elves, the Dwarrowdelf was a Black Chasm.

[trolls' bane]

I'd buy it right away! Then I don't have to buy individual books. Just print em out!

[Beregond]

how did you get it into a word document? or did you spend along time writing it out?

[Galin]

I think a possible approach might be: Frodo said he could not read the writing, but he remembered what Gandalf said (Moria), and Gandalf said Moria because that was the more familiar name.

This might serve as an explanation, as the name Moria need not be written on the actual door.

[Jon S.]

Y'all are making a common mistake. You're translating Moria using one of the more common Middle Earth languages. In fact, certain Elves spoke Hebrew where Moria means, "My teacher is Illuvatar [God]."

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Y'all are making a common mistake. You're translating Moria using one of the more common Middle Earth languages. In fact, certain Elves spoke Hebrew where Moria means, "My teacher is Illuvatar [God]."

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Here you go: "sense of humor."

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Here you go: "sense of humor."

'Righty.

What can I say... Varna is damn smart.

And Willow Oran, nice to see you again! Moothug!

[Varnafindë]

The illustration in the book could not be a photo of the door, as photography had not been invented. It may be Frodo's drawing, and as there was not time for him to do a sketch in such detail as to copy every sign written on the door, he must have made the drawing from memory after he came back.

He would then just have written the text as he "knew" it to be - not realising that he was drawing Gandalf's translation rather than the actual words on the door.

[Earniel]

That is a very clever point, Varna, I never thought about it. It certainly makes sense.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

The illustration in the book could not be a photo of the door, as photography had not been invented. It may be Frodo's drawing, and as there was not time for him to do a sketch in such detail as to copy every sign written on the door, he must have made the drawing from memory after he came back.

He would then just have written the text as he "knew" it to be - not realising that he was drawing Gandalf's translation rather than the actual words on the door.

Unless Frodo has photographic memory... which would make the drawing in the book a true depiction

[Willow Oran]

He could also have copied the image from an older document in Imladris.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

He could also have copied the image from an older document in Imladris.

Interesting suggestion too. The original population of Imladris came straight out of Eregion. If there are any Elves able to reproduce the carvings on the door, then it would be these Elves. Frodo did spend some time in Rivendell before going back to the Shire, he would have had a good opportunity right there.

[Varnafindë]

I expect that those Elves also would be drawing the picture from memory, but they at least would remember exactly what was the wording on the doors.

In which case, we're back to square one

But thank you for your compliments on my smartness

[Jon S.]

I strongly agree with the POV that the Hobbits are writing the history in LOTR with Tolkien doing the translating. It's why, in the movie section, I'm usually more open to the personality changes than most. The Hobbits worshipped, for example, Aragorn and Faramir. They had every incentive, in the Red Book, to present them as "larger than life." Well, so be it.

It is an interesting angle from which to consider the Moria name issue, though.