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09-10-2003, 01:48 PM | #1 |
Long lost mooter
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Silmarillion discussion ch. 13: Of the Return of the Noldor
Supplimental readings:
Book of Lost Tales 1: "Flight of the Noldoli" The Shaping of Middle Earth: "Prose Fragments," "The Earliest Silmarillion," "The Quenta," and "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" The Lost Road: "Quenta Silmarillion" and "The Later Annals of Beleriand" (If this is incorrect or if there are more, please let me know and I'll add them to this list.) Summary: This is a relatively lengthy chapter containing a lot of important action. Feanor and the gang return to Middle Earth in exile from Valinor in pursuit of Morgoth and the Silmarils. Feanor is killed by Gothmog, lord of the Balrogs in battle. The Noldor are reunited with their Elvish kin still residing in Middle Earth, particularly Thingol and the Grey Elves. Maedhros is captured by Morgoth during battle and hung from Thangorodrim. Fingolfin and his group arrive, and there is animosity between them and the sons of Feanor. Fingon rescues Maedhros (which, IMO, is one of the most powerful and moving narratives in the book). Fingolfin hosts the Mereth Aderthad (Feast of Reuniting). Updates are given about some of the main characters, regarding where they settled, etc. Morgoth then instigates the Dagor Aglareb (Glorious Battle) and the Siege of Angband begins. The chapter ends with a description of the period of 400 years (reminiscent to me of the Pax Romana), during which time there are only two major skirmishes with the dark forces, one being with Glaurung, the fire drake. (I was unable to read all of the supplimental material, but what I did read of it revealed that little was changed from the original idea except for the contunuous addition of details and incidents serving to enrich the tale. Please keep in mind as this is discussed that I am one of the less knowledgable posters regarding The Silmarillion and it's history, so some questions I may ask are for clarity as much as for a springboard for discussion, in hopes that others like me may benefit from the knowledge of the "scholars" here. ) (points for discussion on next post) |
09-10-2003, 02:56 PM | #2 |
Long lost mooter
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Points for discussion:
A 1.Dagor-nuin-Giliath (Battle-under-Stars) a. It is written that although Feanor and co. were outnumbered by Morgoth's host, they were victorious in part because "the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes..." What does this phrase mean exactly (was it a physical light, or metaphorical) and how did it affect their battle prowess? b. I find it amazing that this group of Noldor had the energy to battle and WIN (especially being outnumbered) after coming all that way, after burning the ships, etc., not only winning, but actually driving the orcs back to the Fen of Serech! What stamina! Do you think they'd have been as successful if they had not been so full of "wrath?" c. A phrase describing Morgoth's defeat reads "from it [the battle] returned of all the hosts that he had prepared for the conquest of Beleriand no more than a handful of leaves [my emphasis]." I find this an odd description -- what exactly do you think it means (again, is it literal, and if not, why characterize orcs as leaves, a metaphor so often applied to elves)? Why do you think Tolkien chose to illustrate it this way? 2. Feanor presses his luck As Feanor seeks to drive his foes back to Morgoth himself, he laughs aloud, "rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengence." I see this as a failing -- his "vengence" being more important to him than his kin and his "gods" (for lack of a better word). He is not "grim yet determined," nor "bitter yet resigned to complete his self-appointed task," he is described as being happy in his wrath, as if he has been given an excuse for all he has done. Not good -- this does not speak well for his character IMO. He is mentally out of control at this point -- FEY. Tolkien describes him as being "consumed by the flame of his own wrath." HE DEFEATS HIMSELF. Maybe it was all he had been through, and that he needed to feel justified in his deeds that caused him to be "out of control" here, but what might have happened if he had taken time to col down and be more level-headed about it? If he lost the wrath, would he also have lost the drive, that was contageous and motivated the rest of the bunch, and resulted in failure? Or would he have been able to come out with similar results (driving back the forces), but also his life? Or perhaps his sons were so enflamed by his death that they were only then able to make this particular victory happen? Your thoughts? 3. Death of Feanor a. "And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim...and knew...that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them [Thangorodrim and the other towers there]." I find this an interesting sentence -- I guess it means that in the end it will be the power of men and the Valar that must aid in their destruction, but we don't "know" that yet as we read -- a nice bit of foreshadowing. b. This has been discussed before recently (does anyone remember which thread?): would it have been better if Feanor had released his sons form attemting to fulfill the oath? COULD he have? But he never would have IMO, because then all of his deeds would have been in vain ("we" don't like to think that, and will do whatever possible to avoid facing that. But he could already see that "no power of the Noldor would overthrow," on the other hand, he still thought they could perhaps get the Silmarils back). Would it have been better for him to have seen that he had been too hot-headed, etc.? I guess no, because Morgoth needed to be fought anyway, but maybe he could have made the destruction of Morgoth his goal, and NOT the return of the Silmarils, because as we see later that causes problems. I can see him saying to his sons with his last breath, instead of urging them to stick to the oath, "Forget the Silmarils, but never stop in your quest to utterly defeat the Foe. I see now that this must be accomplished by working together with blah, blah..." But I see that this would be too much to ask from him. (continued -- post limits ) |
09-10-2003, 03:08 PM | #3 |
Long lost mooter
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c. As he dies, his fiery spirit leaves, turning his body to ash, which was blown away like smoke. What a powerful image! I can see that being done as a great special effects scene in a movie.
d."His likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the Halls of Mandos." What does everyone think of this. What if he had come back (a la Glorfindel)? Wow. (Does "likeness" mean there was no one like him, or that he never was seen again? And is he still in the Halls of Mandos?) e. Feanor was the "mightiest of the Noldor...of whose deeds came their greatest renown and their most grievous woe." Explain what this means to you. f. Did Tolkien "like" Feanor, not just as a character, but as a person (elf)? He gave him all of these great traits, but made him flawed -- could not the same deeds (I mean in craft and language, as well as battle) been done by one more balanced and "wise" (for lack of a better word)? He certainly is a hero in the classic sense of the word (larger than life, etc.). Is that why he was made to be flawed? And is he a sympathetic character, in your opinion? If Tolkien had met Feanor, would he have admired him? What about his character? 3. Maedhros At this point in the chapter, we see Maedhros calling Morgoth's bluff about treating and returning a Silmaril (as if they were going to fall for that, Morgoth, I mean really! ). So do you see it as a mistake on his part, or was what happened (his capture, etc.) simply bad luck? He could have refused the offer, but he was trying to outsneak the main sneak, who outsneaked him still. Do you see any underlying lesson given here, such as "if you deal with others in an underhanded way, you will be 'punished'," or was it simply an act of fate, or underestimating the enemy? B 1. Fingolfin arrives. a. FLOWERS SPRING FORTH FROM BENEATH HIS FEET!!?? When I first read this, I thought "Okay prefessor, that embellishment may be going a little far in the realm of credibility." But then I realized the flowers were blooming because of the SUN, since the sun was rising for the first time (am I right?) :lightbulb smiley : b. ...Which leads me to just how lucky he was that it happened at that very moment! Talk about good timing! They march on Angband, and the orcs all flee from the rising sun. (This reminds me of a comedy sketch, but I can't think of a particular one -- the gag where others have done the fighting, then the pompous king comes in and gets the glory, or one where the bad guys run away from a little guy and he feels tough, when behind the little guy is the big guy they were actually running from.) (still more to come -- the final one, I hope!) |
09-10-2003, 03:56 PM | #4 |
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2. Fingon rescues Maedhros
a. This part is pretty straightforward in terms of action, but I wanted to mention a sentence I love (aside from "the thought of their ancient friendship stung at his heart"): when Fingon sings his song when he couldn't find Maedhros (which reminds most of us of Sam in Cirith Ungol), and his song is heard "in the mournful hollows that had never heard before aught save cries of fear and woe." I love the personification of the very earth there, which seems to stop and listen to the sound of what must have been one of the most beautiful sounds ever heard -- the singing and harp playing of one of the Eldar. (This also reminds me of the Greek myth -- was it Orpheus? who played his harp and sang to get in and out of Hades?) And then of course we get another glimpse of the fabulous race of Eagles, when Thorondor comes to his aid. 3. The strife between the kindreds is assuaged by Fingon's deed, and Maedhros yeilds the claim of the kingship to Fingolfin (who is characterized as being "of other temper than Feanor" -- a good thing, I suppose). Unfortunately, the other sons of Feanor aren't happy about this. Any thoughts? 4. Thingol verbally marks his territory by way of a message from Angrod, who shows up in Doriath (this is starting to read like an opera synopsis -- so much happens, and so many characters!), and of course, let's all say it together, the sons of Feanor were angered . So we have Caranthir chiding the sons of Finarfin, and Angrod becomes irked, then Maedhros upbraids Caranthir. I love this part, because Tolkien writes that the rest of the elves are getting sick and tired of the sons of Feanor constantly throwing tantrums (okay, that's not exactly it, but basically). Of course, they can't complain (or else they'll become the brunt of it -- NO NO I'm kidding) because really the "wrath" is what brought them through everything that had passed so far. Otherwise they may have all just given up. Yes? 5. Finrod is a copycat. a. Finrod decides to build a hidden kingdom after seeing Doriath, and Nargothrond is founded. It is at this point we hear how the dwarves give him the Nauglamir, and the name Felagund. What do you think this looked like (it is described as being gold set with gems). b. This sentence intrigued me: "But Finrod Felagund was not the first to dwell in the caves beside the River Narog." I seem to have forgotten what is meant by this -- can anyone enlighten me? There is so much that happens in this chapter, I haven't even mentioned everything, but I hope that if there's something I didn't bring up that you'd like to discuss that you post about it. I am already afraid that the number of "points" I've brought up will itself kill the discussion, because it is so much to respond to. I almost thought about waiting a few days to post some of the stuff, to spread it out a little, but I got on a roll, plus I wasn't sure if that would mess things up. Anyway, to end the introduction, I have a few general questions for discussion: Is hate evil? The good and evil thread made me think about this as I read about Feanor and his wrath, that ultimately led to good (the driving back of Morgoth), but caused so much evil as well. So was his hatred a good thing? Did Tolkien see this? Was it a good thing or ultimately a bad idea that led to complacency and thus destruction to build all these "hidden kingdoms" (Doriath, Nargothrond, Gondolin)? And was their ultimate destruction really a bad thing (a question for a later chapter, I know)? Galadriel and Melian: It is described here how Galadriel stayed and hung out w/ Melian, learning a lot from her. Is this how she became the most powerful of the Eldar in ME, or was it just adding to her knowledge base to be her "pupil" (did she get power or jsut knowledge)? Or was it jsut that so many of the others had left and she had been there so long by the time we see her in LotR that she is the most powerful? (Sorry if I'm not making sense at this point, my mind is getting mushy). Okay, your turn! (Whew! ) |
09-10-2003, 05:05 PM | #5 | ||||
The Insufferable
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Wheee!
1. Dagor-nuin-Giliath (Battle-under-Stars) In order to understand what's happening here, one has to keep in mind that elves are spiritual more than physical creatures. Sure, they're physically impressive, strong, fast, beautiful, immune to sickness and weariness, and ultimately immortal. But those are never presented as having physical origins. The thing that seperates elves from men is the greater control their spirits have over their bodies. The spiritual strength of an elf carries over into the physical realm, which is why, for example, an elf that fell into despair would 'fade' into nothingness. The spirit stops supporting the body, which falls out of existance. Now, it's noted many times that elves who had gone to Aman were stronger in spirit (and thus in body) than those who had not. The light of the two trees especially seems to have invigorated them. And at this time, the elven host was still at full strength. You think of it in terms of them having just come from a long journey, but in truth they were probably closer to just having woken up in the morning. They were rested, refreshed, in spirit, because they had just come from valinor. It would be many centuries before they grew tired. Quote:
2. Feanor presses his luck I agree. This does not speak well for Feanor's character. And no, I don't think it can be at all explained by what had happened to him up to that point. It was his impetuous actions that had led to this pass. He was mentally unbalanced, in my opinion- The word demoniac comes to mind. 3. Death of Feanor I think it's pretty obvious that nothing the noldor could ever do would be able to defeat Morgoth. They couldn't kill him, which is of course impossible, and they didn't have the means to restrain him as the valar did and cast him out into the void. They were fighting for a lost cause. I think the could have rescinded his oath, and I think he could have one that battle and come out with his life. But he was to rash to do so. It would have been better. But, if he knew that the noldor could never win, it would have been silly to have them die trying, right? Quote:
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09-10-2003, 05:26 PM | #6 | |||
The Insufferable
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3. Maedhros
I see what happens as a mistake on Maedhros's part- after all, it was pretty stupid to try and outmanuever a god. However, it was also due to circumstances beyond his control. It was both fate and underestimating the enemy. 1. Fingolfin arrives. The flower thing, as well as the whole idea of his showing up right as the first sun rose, could be taken as hyperbole and silly exaggeration. On the other hand, it could be taken as divine providence. You never know. It certainly wasn't by planning on his part that this happened. 2. Fingon rescues Maedhros I really don't see it as action. In an action sequence he would have come in and killed a whole bunch of orcs as he fought his way through to the main room or the dungeon whatever in Angband. Instead, it's very dramatic, with his sneaking in and ending up chopping off his best friend's hand to save him. Quote:
[QUOTE]4. Thingol verbally marks his territory by way of a message from Angrod, who shows up in Doriath (this is starting to read like an opera synopsis -- so much happens, and so many characters!), and of course, let's all say it together, the sons of Feanor were angered . So we have Caranthir chiding the sons of Finarfin, and Angrod becomes irked, then Maedhros upbraids Caranthir.[QUOTE]Another reason why I really like Maedhros. He's a great character, and manages to be... how does one say this? He's not really tragic, in the classic sense, he doesn't end in a huge disaster and things actually turn out pretty well, but the way his oath turns out makes you sick in the pit of your stomach. It's just depressing. 5. Finrod is a copycat Indeed, he was. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact his willingness to cooperate and help others, and accept help and ideas, is what marks him as a great leader. Maybe that's what they mean when they say he was the fairest of the elven kings. In any case, It was the petty dwarves, Mim and his Ilk, that had lived in those caves at first. But they were in decline, being cast out from their clans, and that the sindar would hunt them like animals obviously didn't help. After the destruction of Nargothrond, Mim reclaims the cave and all the treasures therein, and it is his curse upon the gold (Which Hurin takes to Doriath after killing him) that resulted in the death of Thingol and the Sack of Doriath. Quote:
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09-10-2003, 09:37 PM | #7 |
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Thanks for your thorough response to my intro!
I love your first two paragraphs describing the elves' physical-spiritual relationship, that illustrates it very well, especially about how their long journey was for them like just waking up because of the power gained in Aman. Good point. I also like your comment about Maedhros' "orc-like" sibs. |
09-11-2003, 05:37 AM | #8 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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azalea - wow!
1.Dagor-nuin-Giliath (Battle-under-Stars) I was thinking that "the light of Aman" in the eyes of the Noldor was in itself a powerful weapon against the enemy. Middle-Earth lay still in darkness, except for the light from the stars, and Morgoth and his creatures feared the light. Wayfarer, I think your description of the Ñoldor as "just having woken up in the morning" is very good. And I think they had this terrible rage against the enemy that had so cruelly betrayed them in Valinor. These factors were more important than the superior control of their bodies through their spirits, as I see it. 2. Feanor presses his luck This is just too sad. Fëanor was gifted, being stronger in spirit than anyone else, but unfortunately he wasn't given wisdom enough to go with it. I can imagine him being full of burning energy, unable to wait, unable to be patient, unable to think clearly. We have to bear in mind that he went against the foe who had killed his beloved father. 3. Death of Feanor Fëanor was long ago far beyond the point where he would give up the quest for the Silmarils. It was natural for him to press his sons to fulfil the oath, though I don't think it would have mattered much if he hadn't pressed them, I think they were themselves aflamed and determined to keep the oath and to have revenge for their father's death. And even if he would have wanted to release his sons from the oath they had taken, I don't think he had the power to do it. Quote:
The description of Fëanor's death reminds me of the 'death' of Saruman. The likeness says something about the power of Fëanor's spirit, doesn't it? When the Elves died they could return to life if they wished, but only after they had stayed by Mandos for some time. Fëanor was an exception. He was not allowed to return from the Halls of Mandos, so his spirit would still be there. I'm one who happen to like Fëanor, at least the person he was before he was influenced by Melkor. Perhaps it would be difficult to be his friend, not because he lacked good qualities, but because he was so exceptional, both in the way life had fared with him (mother dead of free will, father remarried) and in the strength of his spirit. There was not his like in the world, and I think he was very lonely.
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09-11-2003, 07:13 AM | #9 | ||
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1. Fingolfin arrives.
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2. Fingon rescues Maedhros This is one of the best moments in the Sil. Fingon demonstrates the true meaning of friendship. When I read this part again I came to wonder about a little thing. Fingon takes his harp and sings. He is deliberately going towards Thangorodrim, the fastness of Morgoth, to free Maedhros. And he brings his harp! It seems too much of a coincidence. Did these Elves always carry music instruments with them, or what? I'd like to put in links to some pictures here: The saving of Maedhros (Warning: it is 'bloody') Maglor and Maedhros I like how Maedhros is pictured as red-haired. And Thorondor looks great. The strife between the kindreds Maedhros did the only right thing when he gave up his claim to the kingship. About his siblings not being to happy about that, well, they had inherited their view on this matter from their father. They had not had the opportunity to think things over through long years in isolated torment, as had Maedhros. This strife started long ago between Fingolfin and Fëanor, and both parties were to blame for not being able to end it. And I think calling any Elf 'orc-like' is a cruel offence. Galadriel and Melian: Galadriel was wise enough to seek knowledge where she could find it, and what would be more natural than to learn from a Maia? She knows that knowledge can be turned into power. I think it is right to say that Galadriel was one of the most powerful of the Eldar in Middle-Earth through the years. There were others as powerful, I think, but the nature of their power was different. Galadriel says herself in LotR: Quote:
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09-11-2003, 02:24 PM | #10 | ||
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So your take on it is that it was an actual physical light shining rom their eyes? I know elven eyes are described as being bright anyway, so maybe the light was like an extra "twinkle" that would have really stood out in the darkness. Silly but fun question: Would each elf's light shine out as the color of his own eyes, or would all their lights be one color (like gold)? Quote:
So WHY was he not allowed out of Mandos again? That's sad that he was lonely (but what about what's her name , his wife?). He gives off the appearance of not caring much about stuff like that. The harp: I guess this shows how very important music was to the Eldar, it was a staple like food and water that meant so much that they woulnd't undertake a journey without it (it might also have been habit, because what else is one to do on a long journey, esp. alone? You can't very well tell stories when you're by yourself). Those are great pics, thanks! Thorondor was excellent (although for some reason I always imagined him as a Golden eagle rather than a Bald). |
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09-11-2003, 04:50 PM | #11 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Great intro, azalea! Thanks There was sure a lot going on, wasn't there!
Just a couple of quick points - I agree with azalea and Artanis about the section on Fingon saving Maedhros - that's always been one of my favorite sections. Reminds me of what I heard once was the unofficial motto of the Coast Guard here in the US - basically, you gotta go out, even tho you may not come back. I can picture Fingon feeling like that - he just has to go look for his good friend, even tho he'll probably die. And the harp bit always made me smile - even a smallish harp is pretty big! I guess it's just so necessary to them, like food, that they take it everywhere. Or perhaps because he knew he would most probably die, he wanted the extra strength and consolation that music would give to his elvish spirit. As far as the light in the eyes, IIRC, it was physically painful to Gollum - anyone remember the section? And I kind of imagine a basically clear light glinting out like facets in a diamond, no matter what the eye color. Fun question, azalea! EDIT - Oh, here it is: Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-11-2003 at 04:56 PM. |
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09-11-2003, 05:55 PM | #12 | |
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I really can't accept the characterization of the light of Aman as a weapon. It was part of the elven nature, and only the Enemies would have sought to use that as a weapon.
Evil always will hate and fear goodness, and goodness is always repelled and sickened by evil. In the past of middle earth, that was more obvious than it is today in our world. But since good and evil cannot coexist, a good spirit and an evil spirit would be antagonistic. A creature such as gollum who encountered a creature such as an elf would be an overwhelming experience. His fea, his spirit, would be hurt and cowed by their much stronger fea. Conversely, when we see melkor or sauron encountering a weaker being it is almost as overwhelming. Look at what happened to Pippen- he was terrified and unable to resist. That's my take on it, anyway. As for the form the lights took, It's been suggested to me that they would have mirrored the lights of the two trees- so something like sunlight and moonlight. I imagine that it might also have something to do with the eyes being a window to the sould. Quote:
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09-12-2003, 12:31 AM | #13 | |||||||
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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09-12-2003, 12:35 AM | #14 | ||||||||
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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09-12-2003, 03:19 AM | #15 | ||
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09-12-2003, 08:59 AM | #16 |
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Light in the eyes
It always seemed to me that the Exiled Noldor had a brighter eye than other Elves, because of dwelling in the light of the Two Trees. All Elves had the light of the stars in their eyes, that shown on them at their awakening. I don't think it was so much the bright light in the eyes of the Noldor, as much as it was their keen, sharp glance that was intimidating. Fingon's song It is strange that in such a dire situation that he just happens to have this harp on him, and whips it out and plays. I think that music is a spiritual thing, and we all know that the Elves were a spiritual bunch. Nargothrond Maedhros, (of Entmoot ) Finrod was not a copycat, but was following the instructions of Ulmo. He was filled with wonder at the strength and majesty of Menegroth, and fashioned Nargothrond on that model. Yes azalea, the Petty Dwarves first delved the caverns that later became Nargothrond. They were the original dwellers.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
09-12-2003, 10:16 AM | #17 | |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
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09-12-2003, 11:16 AM | #18 | |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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09-12-2003, 12:46 PM | #19 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-12-2003, 02:39 PM | #20 | |||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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