Were the Valar “demoted” at the end of the Second Age?

[CAB]

Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. -Akallabeth, The Silmarillion

I have often wondered what exactly was meant by this passage concerning the changing of the world at the end of the Second Age. Recently I have developed a theory. Maybe it means that the Valar were “demoted” by Eru.

If the Valar’s task was to guide and protect the Children of Iluvatar, they did a pretty lousy job. The story of Elves and Men is filled with hatred, war, and suffering, much of which can be attributed directly to the Valar and much of which (no, not all) they could have prevented.
The Valar had made mistakes on top of mistakes. They were perhaps too interested in their own happiness and definitely didn’t understand Elves and Men.

When they realized that the Numenoreans were going to attack them (due to the influence of one of their own people, no less) they should have appreciated the magnitude of the situation. They could have sent an ambassador such as Eonwe to speak with the Numenoreans and perhaps counteract Sauron. Or (heaven forbid) one of the Valar could have left to comfort of Valinor and gone themselves. What did the Valar see fit to send? Threatening weather and cloud formations, nice choice.

The Valar’s decision to fence themselves (and apparently many of the most beautiful things in the world) in the West and then ban the Numenoreans from visiting and then failing to take proper action when troubles arose, caused Eru to have to destroy thousands of his Children. Maybe this was the final straw. He then removed the temptation of Valinor from the Earth and let the Valar live their own lives without so much responsibility for the state of Middle Earth. A responsibility they had never really lived up to anyway.

[Gordis]

Very interesting, CAB.

I have little to say, because I agree with you.
Of course, the Valar did send the Istari...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Of course, the Valar did send the Istari...

Yes, this is why I said demoted instead of fired, which was actually my first thought. It is also pretty clear that they got Eru’s permission to send them. Maybe before the Third Age they could have acted without asking first.

[Butterbeer]

go see my new theory in the ban of the valar thread ...

essentially discussing whether the valar were in fact, only one lazy fat man, a wiazrd of oz style character with bad breath and a fear of the common cold and who hated garlic??

...or ...

(will get back to you on this when i have some time - just having a quick look around now- while i have a mo - as i wait for someone to turn up to pick up a camera)

best, BB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by CAB

When they realized that the Numenoreans were going to attack them (due to the influence of one of their own people, no less) they should have appreciated the magnitude of the situation. They could have sent an ambassador such as Eonwe to speak with the Numenoreans and perhaps counteract Sauron. Or (heaven forbid) one of the Valar could have left to comfort of Valinor and gone themselves. What did the Valar see fit to send? Threatening weather and cloud formations, nice choice.

Do you not think they made the right choice? After they told Eru he killed the Numenorean army.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Do you not think they made the right choice? After they told Eru he killed the Numenorean army.

Nay, he killed all the population of the island, newborn babies included.

And really, TD, don't you think that Ulmo and Tulkas and Osse couldn't deal with the Fleet themselves? They were Valar!

I think, the Valar really didn't want to harm Numenoreans, they recognised their own failure and just didn't know what to do. Basically they resigned the Rule of Arda.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that Manwe felt that killing the Children of Eru was something he could not do without consulting Eru. It would have been like the Valar killing the elves.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And really, TD, don't you think that Ulmo and Tulkas and Osse couldn't deal with the Fleet themselves? They were Valar!

I think, the Valar really didn't want to harm Numenoreans, they recognised their own failure and just didn't know what to do. Basically they resigned the Rule of Arda.

I doubt the Valar wanted to act directly against the Númenoreans, because then the blame of the destruction of the fleet and Númenor would squarely fall on the Valar, no doubt driving the rest of Men directly into Sauron's arms.

It could be that the Valar did recognise their own fault in the disaster and knew that an even bigger mess could be made in trying to set it right again. They may have asked Eru in that light to be taken off the case. Or Eru may have told them himself that he was tired of their screwing up and that Arda was better off without their interfering.

And who knows, it may very well have been the idea from the start that Arda at one point would have to do without stewards, like a child that comes of age and doesn't require the help from his guardian any longer. Although I doubt it was planned to be in such a situation.

[Landroval]

They could have sent an ambassador such as Eonwe to speak with the Numenoreans and perhaps counteract Sauron.

They did send ambasadors, trying to quiet things down.

He then removed the temptation of Valinor from the Earth and let the Valar live their own lives without so much responsibility for the state of Middle Earth. A responsibility they had never really lived up to anyway.

In Myths Transformed, the primary task of (at least) Manwe is to counteract Melkor - which he did with greatest wisdom. As for the rest of the problems of Eru's children, the valar aren't supposed to cross their free will; and free will has consequences.

Nay, he killed all the population of the island, newborn babies included.

Those who landed were burried in the caves of the forgottern; the rest of the fleet was drowned. As for those on Numenor, I doubt any of them could have straightened, due to the deep corruption there.

I think, the Valar really didn't want to harm Numenoreans, they recognised their own failure and just didn't know what to do. Basically they resigned the Rule of Arda.

In letter #131, Tolkien states that the numenoreans could have ruined Valinor at that time.

I doubt the Valar wanted to act directly against the Númenoreans, because then the blame of the destruction of the fleet and Númenor would squarely fall on the Valar, no doubt driving the rest of Men directly into Sauron's arms.

I wouldn't see the logic; if you are attacked in our own home, you have the right to defend yourself. As stated in the Akallabeth, the main target of the numenoreans was actually the presence of the valar (the only thing that granted the holy land its immortality) - what were the valar supposed to do, surrender to the numenoreans?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I wouldn't see the logic; if you are attacked in our own home, you have the right to defend yourself. As stated in the Akallabeth, the main target of the numenoreans was actually the presence of the valar (the only thing that granted the holy land its immortality) - what were the valar supposed to do, surrender to the numenoreans?

I wonder whether the Númenoreans really could have done something to the Valar, they could have destroyed Valinor maybe, but I sort of doubt whether they'd be able to put a hand on the Valar. Fingolfin managed to wound Morgoth severly, but the rest of the Valar had, I think, invested less energy in their corporal form.

Also, I never said anything about surrendering, I just gave my idea about why the Valar called on Eru and didn't act directly themselves against Númenor.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

They did send ambasadors, trying to quiet things down.

Yes, they sent some Elves as ambassadors about a thousand years before the Downfall. Shouldn’t they have considered sending someone a little more influential later when the situation became so bad that the King’s chief counselor was Sauron and he was considering attacking Valinor?

Originally Posted by Landroval

In Myths Transformed, the primary task of (at least) Manwe is to counteract Melkor - which he did with greatest wisdom. As for the rest of the problems of Eru's children, the valar aren't supposed to cross their free will; and free will has consequences.

Free will has consequences. The Valar also possessed free will and used it to make some awful decisions. If they had acted more wisely, the Numenoreans wouldn’t have been tempted to try and take Valinor (which shouldn’t have existed as it did anyway) and so bring about their own destruction.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Those who landed were burried in the caves of the forgottern; the rest of the fleet was drowned. As for those on Numenor, I doubt any of them could have straightened, due to the deep corruption there.

Gandalf, who seems to have been one of Eru’s more loyal servants, believed that even Gollum could be redeemed. Surely not everyone on Numenor was at a lower point than he was. I think Eru’s hand was forced (at least as much as you can ever force God’s hand). The Valar had to take much of the blame for the situation.

Originally Posted by Landroval

In letter #131, Tolkien states that the numenoreans could have ruined Valinor at that time.

I wouldn't see the logic; if you are attacked in our own home, you have the right to defend yourself. As stated in the Akallabeth, the main target of the numenoreans was actually the presence of the valar (the only thing that granted the holy land its immortality) - what were the valar supposed to do, surrender to the numenoreans?

The point isn’t that the Numenoreans should be spared or allowed to take Valinor. The point is that the Valar should have never let things progress to this point. To do so was extremely negligent.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I doubt the Valar wanted to act directly against the Númenoreans, because then the blame of the destruction of the fleet and Númenor would squarely fall on the Valar, no doubt driving the rest of Men directly into Sauron's arms.

It could be that the Valar did recognise their own fault in the disaster and knew that an even bigger mess could be made in trying to set it right again. They may have asked Eru in that light to be taken off the case. Or Eru may have told them himself that he was tired of their screwing up and that Arda was better off without their interfering.

And who knows, it may very well have been the idea from the start that Arda at one point would have to do without stewards, like a child that comes of age and doesn't require the help from his guardian any longer. Although I doubt it was planned to be in such a situation.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I wonder whether the Númenoreans really could have done something to the Valar, they could have destroyed Valinor maybe, but I sort of doubt whether they'd be able to put a hand on the Valar. Fingolfin managed to wound Morgoth severly, but the rest of the Valar had, I think, invested less energy in their corporal form.

I think I would pretty much agree with everything you are saying except the Valar’s reason for not destroying the Numenoreans themselves. I would guess that this was simply too big of a step for them to take without Eru’s involvement. I don’t mean the other things such as the destruction of Numenor itself and the removal of Valinor, which were probably Eru’s ideas. I mean that killing thousands of Men was something that had to be approved by Eru. Of course, in this case he approved and handled the job himself.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I wonder whether the Númenoreans really could have done something to the Valar, they could have destroyed Valinor maybe, but I sort of doubt whether they'd be able to put a hand on the Valar. Fingolfin managed to wound Morgoth severly, but the rest of the Valar had, I think, invested less energy in their corporal form.

Also, I never said anything about surrendering, I just gave my idea about why the Valar called on Eru and didn't act directly themselves against Númenor.

I didn't say they would harm the valar; just that the valar had all the necessary rights to destroy the numenoreans.

Yes, they sent some Elves as ambassadors about a thousand years before the Downfall. Shouldn’t they have considered sending someone a little more influential later when the situation became so bad that the King’s chief counselor was Sauron and he was considering attacking Valinor?

I don't know why you presume they are elves; in HOME XII, History of Akallabeth, they are capitalised (Messengers). Either way, the valar know what is "wrong and disastrous" for them: to force lesser wills by awe(letter #156). If the numenoreans wanted their way, they could have it, up to a point.

The Valar also possessed free will and used it to make some awful decisions. If they had acted more wisely, the Numenoreans wouldn’t have been tempted to try and take Valinor (which shouldn’t have existed as it did anyway) and so bring about their own destruction.

In both Osanwe-kenta and Akallabeth, Manwe is described as the spirit of greatest wisdom - I doubt anyone else in his place (including us ) could have made better choices. [Also, according to Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, it is stated that "the designs of Eru...governed all the operations of the faithfull valar".]

Gandalf, who seems to have been one of Eru’s more loyal servants, believed that even Gollum could be redeemed.

Hope without guarantees is a pre-requisite for all faithfulls . [Then again, Gollum definitely still had a good side and, moreover, hobbits could resist Sauron's corruption far better than Men.]

I would guess that this was simply too big of a step for them to take without Eru’s involvement.

I wouldn't say so; they condemned a far higher race (the returning noldor) to a cruel fate (perhaps even crueler), when they cursed them - and the elves are more closer to the valar (and perhaps Eru too) than Men are.

Once they realized (which probably took some years) that Valinor was gone and the Earth was round, the Numenoreans probably knew that this was beyond the Valar’s power.

Why couldn't they? It was the valar who shaped Arda as it was (and this they did while opposing Melkor).

[Landroval]

By the strict definition of the word, evil intent isn’t necessary to make an action evil.

"Evil" is, I believe, a purely human term; if an animal kills another animal or climate kills weak animals, as far as nature is concerned, this isn't evil, just life. So, what would you define as evil? Otherwise we are going in circles.

This connection only applies if Manwe knew the full consequences of his decisions.

Which is impossible, since "in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past"; this makes prediction almost impossible.

This seems to be your opinion of him.

No, just that he is the wisest being in Ea, save Eru.

In this case true understanding means that Manwe had 100% accurate knowledge of Eru’s will in regard to any decision he (Manwe) personally had to make as the King of Arda. He may not have known “why” but did know “yes or no”.

Well, as I quoted the Atrabeth previously, "the designs of Eru governed all the operations of the faithful Valar" - so I guess that Manwe did know what Eru would like or not from what Manwe was aware was his options.

The main problem with this view (specifically scenarios 3 and 4), I think, is that Manwe must have known that everything done is true to Eru’s will.

I am not sure I follow..

Landroval was speaking of a surgeon killing a patient by mistake.

When?

The same applies to a person negligent in his duties, or the one who decided not to act when he should have acted: they have no evil intent, but their inaction leads to a catastrophe.

Does anything in Tolkien's work hint that Manwe should have acted sooner concerning the numenoreans, or in a different manner? What makes you think this wasn't the best course of action? In Myths T., Tolkien refuted those who would criticise Manwe (presumedly) delayed action against Melkor - and gave credit to his wisdom (I do too).

[Radagast The Brown]

I agree with Landroval... and I think there's no point accusing them of evil as we don't know the possible consequences of any other action that could've been taken. Perhaps the outcome was the least-evil possible... and really the end wasn't that bad, and rather positive even.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I disagree. I would say that the outcome would be one of evil, but the action itself wouldn't be if there was no evil intent.

Originally Posted by Landroval

"Evil" is, I believe, a purely human term; if an animal kills another animal or climate kills weak animals, as far as nature is concerned, this isn't evil, just life. So, what would you define as evil? Otherwise we are going in circles.

You aren’t arguing with me here, but the dictionary. Read the definition of evil, or for a more in depth answer, look at Wayfarer’s posts on the Evil in Middle Earth thread (if you don’t want to read the whole thing). You can argue the meaning of evil with him if you like, but I wouldn’t recommend it. I would think you would remember those posts TD. You started that thread after all.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Which is impossible, since "in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past"; this makes prediction almost impossible.

No, just that he is the wisest being in Ea, save Eru..

Right. Manwe didn’t know everything, he was less than Eru, so he was capable of making mistakes.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Well, as I quoted the Atrabeth previously, "the designs of Eru governed all the operations of the faithful Valar" - so I guess that Manwe did know what Eru would like or not from what Manwe was aware was his options. .

I see a problem with this point of view if you think that mistakes weren’t part of Eru’s design. To me it is clear that they were. You could say that the Valar were flawed by definition (only Eru is flawless, they were less than Eru, therefore the Valar were flawed) Wasn’t Aule a faithful Vala? Wasn’t the creation of the Dwarves a mistake? Eru immediately corrected him as if it were. If Aule could make a mistake, why not Manwe?

Let’s leave the destruction of Numenor alone for a moment and look at an even more obvious mistake, the release of Melkor. I don’t see how this could be considered anything other than a screw up. The creator of evil is released and allowed to wander freely in Valinor, with all kinds of dire consequences. If it looks like a mistake, and smells like a mistake, and is made by someone who is known to be fallible (and Manwe was, because he wasn’t Eru) then it is probably a mistake. If we accept that the creation of the Dwarves was a mistake then I think the release of Melkor has to be considered one too. The results were much, much worse. I think the only other options were that the Valar were evil or had no free will (and I can’t agree with either of those).

Originally Posted by Landroval

Does anything in Tolkien's work hint that Manwe should have acted sooner concerning the numenoreans, or in a different manner? What makes you think this wasn't the best course of action? In Myths T., Tolkien refuted those who would criticise Manwe (presumedly) delayed action against Melkor - and gave credit to his wisdom (I do too).

The results (loudly) suggest that Manwe should have acted differently. Really, how much worse could they get?

Why did the Valar lay down their government if they were acting so wisely? Because they were in real peril? Let’s consider that for a moment.

Landroval, I won’t argue the point that the Numenoreans could cause ruin in Valinor (as odd as that seems to me) because, as you point out, Tolkien said so himself in letter 131. (By the way, just after this statement, he wrote that the Valar appealed to Eru and received the “power and permission to deal with the situation”. This directly contradicts your opinion on these matters.)

But they had to get there first didn’t they? Do you think that Ulmo and Osse were powerless to stop the Numenorean fleet. I don’t think so. There are many cases of the Valar and their servants sinking ships. They also succeeded in making Valinor all but unreachable after the Noldor returned to Middle Earth in the First Age. If your opinions are correct they had plenty of time to do this again, because they had determined that the Numenoreans were irredeemable a thousand years before. With all their wisdom, wouldn’t the Valar have assumed that an attack could come from Numenor?

If the Valar decided that the Numenoreans were a lost cause, then you can’t argue that they allowed the fleet to reach Valinor in the hope that they would turn back. And what would they turn back to anyway? Causing problems for the people of Middle Earth instead, what else? This also brings up the question of why the Valar didn’t destroy Numenor long ago if it inhabitants were beyond all hope. They were allowed plenty of time to cause evil for the other people of Arda. Why, if their destruction was simply a matter of time?

If the Valar were doing such a wonderful job, then why did they give up their government (or have it taken from them)? It isn’t because they were around only to combat Melkor, he had been gone for over three thousand years.

To me all this just doesn’t add up. I respect your opinion Landroval, and your defense of Manwe, but I can’t agree with these ideas.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I agree with Landroval... and I think there's no point accusing them of evil as we don't know the possible consequences of any other action that could've been taken. Perhaps the outcome was the least-evil possible... and really the end wasn't that bad, and rather positive even.

I fail to see how a happy, peace loving people becoming oppressors, Melkor-worshipers, and eventually being exterminated is positive. To me the only way this is possible is to have complete faith in Eru. I can’t really argue with this point of view, however this kind of faith means that everything has to be seen in a positive light.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by CAB

Let’s leave the destruction of Numenor alone for a moment and look at an even more obvious mistake, the release of Melkor. I don’t see how this could be considered anything other than a screw up. The creator of evil is released and allowed to wander freely in Valinor, with all kinds of dire consequences. If it looks like a mistake, and smells like a mistake, and is made by someone who is known to be fallible (and Manwe was, because he wasn’t Eru) then it is probably a mistake. If we accept that the creation of the Dwarves was a mistake then I think the release of Melkor has to be considered one too. The results were much, much worse. I think the only other options were that the Valar were evil or had no free will (and I can’t agree with either of those).

I agree that the release of Melkor was a mistake but it wasn't an evil one. It was because there was no evil in Manwe that he got released.

Originally Posted by The Sil

For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar.

[Landroval]

Read the definition of evil, or for a more in depth answer, look at Wayfarer’s posts on the Evil in Middle Earth thread (if you don’t want to read the whole thing).

Evil as dischord? When were Manwe's actions in dischord with Eru (and particulary in the case of the numenoreans)?

Originally Posted by Osanwe kenta

Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose.

Manwe didn’t know everything, he was less than Eru, so he was capable of making mistakes.

He is the wisest and closest to Eru, so, to clear one thing, I ask: could anyone (but Eru) have made better decisions? Furthermore, to reffer to a previous point of our discussion:

I see a problem with this point of view if you think that mistakes weren’t part of Eru’s design. To me it is clear that they were.

I believe are in agreement; I doubt there are mistakes (at least on the part of the valar), since "no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in Him, nor can any alter the music in His despite".

I don’t see how this could be considered anything other than a screw up.

There are at least two more people who think otherwise, the Professor and me (swells chest ):

The weakest and most imprudent of all the actions of Manwe, as it seems to many, was the release of Melkor from captivity. From this came the greatest loss and harm: the death of the Trees, and the exile and the anguish of the Noldor. Yet through this suffering there came also, as maybe in no other way could it have come, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor.
Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwe. If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor...Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough.

With all their wisdom, wouldn’t the Valar have assumed that an attack could come from Numenor?

That was a matter of debate until the very end: "and still all was silent, and doom hung by a thread. For Ar-Pharazon wavered at the end, and almost he turned back". And as far as deterring elements, I think there were plenty:
"Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame... When therefore the last portent came they heeded it little. For the land shook under them, and a groaning as of thunder underground was mingled with the roaring of the sea, and smoke issued from the peak of the Meneltarma. But all the more did Ar-Pharazon press on with his armament."
They weren't even afraid of the host of eagles lead by Thorondor; the eagles are one of the most formidable hosts in all Arda, having defeated the dragons, while the Eagle King marred Melkor single-handedly.

[Butterbeer]

isn't all this talk of "evil", or "mistakes" or "better" or so forth and so on, rather disjointed?

I mean are you all ... when you make these various points and arguments,

... are you talking specifically and clearly from a human persepective?

because many of these are really subjective - from a human being perspective, one might view the mass genocide of an entire Island as "evil" or the release of " i'm alright Jack" Melkor as a bit of a oopsy-daisy etc ...

but is not the view of Eru or of the Valar an entirely different view, or standpoint, would they even consider such notions as "good" and "evil" in any recognisable framework or way as we do?

In terms of our morality or thoughts, would these not be rather alien to them?

Who thinks they would think of themselves that they were "above" such mortal minds and morailities as we view them from?

*only has a few momments here - hopes this point hasn't already been made??*

Gor:

Tell this to employees of a nuclear plant who were innocently chatting while the reactor was overheating.

apart from the fact that would probably be rather hard to actually do ...

since when was incompetence or innocence and chatting definitions of Evil???

really Gor !!!

Again we come down to this central question: are we defining evil from a human perspective or from the perspectives of Valinoreans or Eru (is Eru even technically capable - at least in his mind, of being/ doing evil - as the ultimate Law????)


.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by CAB

I fail to see how a happy, peace loving people becoming oppressors, Melkor-worshipers, and eventually being exterminated is positive. To me the only way this is possible is to have complete faith in Eru. I can’t really argue with this point of view, however this kind of faith means that everything has to be seen in a positive light.

I meant that the end of the third age was positive, the end of the story as we know it, not of Numenor.

I just don't think we're in position to claim "the Valar were wrong", as we can't see the whole picture and they probably could.. neither you nor I can truly tell the consequences of any other action that may have been taken by the Valar.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

He wouldn't be breaking his plea, but would you want a leader or a King who made his mind up before a case had been made. Melkor may well have changed, but they could not know. They had to hear his case first and when they did they (well most) believed he had changed.

I wouldn’t want such a leader. But the point is that in the Silmarillion it is said that Melkor’s case would be heard after three ages. In the quote that Landroval gave it is implied that Manwe promised Melkor’s release after three ages. This is just one of many inconsistences in Tolkien’s writings. Which one do we accept as true? Landroval’s quote is (I would have to guess) the more recent, so I would argue that this would be a point in its favor. However, the quote from the Silmarillion is part of a (relatively) complete story and was published as such, unlike the other quote. To me, the tie-breaker is that the Silmarillion quote makes more sense. Why would Manwe agree to release Melkor, as dangerous as he was to all Arda, just after his capture, without any proof that he had changed (or would change)? Like you said, they needed to hear his case first.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I meant that the end of the third age was positive, the end of the story as we know it, not of Numenor.

Yes, but do the ends justify the means? Was there no other way to defeat Sauron? Perhaps a way that didn’t involve the slaughter of (nearly) an entire nation? Why not? Sauron ended up being defeated by a couple of Hobbits. Yes, I know it was a little more complicated than that, but was all this bloodshed really necessary? I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I just don't think we're in position to claim "the Valar were wrong", as we can't see the whole picture and they probably could.. neither you nor I can truly tell the consequences of any other action that may have been taken by the Valar.

I would agree and disagree. No, we can’t tell the full consequences of any action that wasn’t actually taken. But, if the Valar could then that means they willingly allowed (or even caused) great evil for the inhabitants of Arda in the name of the great design. If this fits with your view of the Valar, fine. It doesn’t fit with mine. I don’t think they would willingly cause evil or kill Eru’s children (at least not in very large numbers). If so, why didn’t they destroy the Numenoreans themselves?

I know I am not a member of the Valar, but does being a Vala excuse one from all questioning of one’s actions? There is no real explanation given for why things were allowed to progress until the Numenoreans had to be exterminated. If there was a good reason, maybe the Valar would have given it. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to give some justification for such an action (or, more accurately, inaction)? Wouldn’t it be easier for Men to learn a lesson if they knew what that lesson was?

Anyway, we can’t judge the results of actions that weren’t taken. Again, I agree. But why can’t we judge the results of actions that were taken? Some of the results were: many wars, hatred, suffering, etc. I don’t think the Valar allowed this purposely (but if you argue that they had full comprehension of the big picture, then you must think that they did). I recognize that in most cases things could have been worse than they actually ended up being. However, the destruction of Numenor (for one) is another matter. I don’t think the results could have been much worse than they were, but I don’t see why they couldn’t have been better (much better).