On him alone is any charge laid

[ecthelion]

Probably someone discussed it before, please refer me to it if you've seen this question before.

As I was rereading LOTR for the n'th time, I came across Elronds speech: "On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

Does Frodo break this promise when he offers Galadriel the ring?

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

save members of the Company and the Council

There's your answer.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

There's your answer.

That's wrong, you ignored ...

Originally Posted by ecthelion

... save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

[The Gaffer]

Well, Gandalf dead, the ring working its power on others in the Company.. seems pretty grave.

The other aspect to this is his "testing" of Galadriel. Depending on which version of her life you look at, her refusal of the Ring, offered freely, was what allowed her to end her exile, forsake ME and return to Valinor.

So maybe Frodo was acting as an agent of a higher mission in this particular instance.

[Butterbeer]

On him alone is any charge laid

Thank God the West Midlands serious crime squad were not involved in this investigation.


....................

Also - you ignored the rather important difference between 'handling it' and 'offering ownership' of it ...

"nah then missus, nice bit of jewlry this'n - feel the quality o' that - real gold, dat! - yours fer a steal!"

*frodo opens up coat revealing 101 watches*

...................

Olmer: That was a speech designated for an unaware public, and also a crafty way to put all burden solely on Frodo. Elrond perfectly knew that Frodo already bonded with a Ring and won't be able to break his promise to carry the ring till the end, unless the ring itself will decide to change the keeper.
"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care — and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him." (FOTR)
So, in this case Frodo was safe:the decision of the Ring's owner change will never be of his own, and he can offer the Ring to whoever he would wish to.

Then, if we agree this, since he does offer it, it would have to be assumed that it was the will of the ring, working through Frodo, that offered itself ...

The question is though, does Galadriel break faith by so seriously considering it - by allowing herself to come to the very crux of being on a knife edge of going one way or the other?

Elrond and Gandalf (and others) will not even entertain the idea of going near that battle of temptation in the first place.

yet the ring and Galadriel together?

[Landroval]

The question is though, does Galadriel break faith by so seriously considering it - by allowing herself to come to the very crux of being on a knife edge of going one way or the other?

I don't think she breaks faith by considering it. Tolkien disavowed that Zimmerman excluded Galadriel's temptation scene, stating that due to this (and others), "practically everything having moral import has vanished from the synopsis". She humbles herself by this choice ("I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel") and Tolkien states in the letters that LotR is a sanctification of the humble.
Furthermore, I don't think she let herself on the knife's edge; Tolkien also states that "Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve" - she wasn't toying around; the mirror scene was the final act in her fight against its influence. As such, "she was pardoned [for rebellion and refusal to return] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself".

[Olmer]

That was a speech designated for an unaware public, and also a crafty way to put all burden solely on Frodo. Elrond perfectly knew that Frodo already bonded with a Ring and won't be able to break his promise to carry the ring till the end, unless the ring itself will decide to change the keeper.
"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care — and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him." (FOTR)
So, in this case Frodo was safe:the decision of the Ring's owner change will never be of his own, and he can offer the Ring to whoever he would wish to.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

"On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

I hadn't focused before on the impact of this charge in the context of Frodo waking up to learn Sam had rescued the ring and was still wearing it but it does add to the undertones behind the intensity of Frodo's words to Sam about immediately returning it.

[ecthelion]

So Frodo's offering the ring to Galadriel was a higher power acting? Either the ring itself or the fateful test of Galadriel? Or even both wills coinciding?
Nice thought

[Landroval]

Considering that in the Atrabeth it is stated that:

...the Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment.

it might just be that the first part of your presupposition is true. I would also add that the ring knew only Sauron as its master and I believe it wouldn't seek Galadriel as a tool for return, since she would most likely keep it to herself (and maybe even come to master it and thus bring about the complete end of Sauron).

[ecthelion]

I'm not so sure about the ring, though.
It seems that the ring tries to get back to its master, but from what G&G co. (Gandalf and Galadriel) say, some other very strong will may successfully master the ring (and lesser wills just get betrayed by it).
So it may be the ring's power (and free will) too.
(Although of course Sauron and even Melkor ultimately played a part ordained by Eru)

[Butterbeer]

So it may be the ring's power (and free will) too.

Interesting, ecthelion -

this, to me, opens up the core of, most of the genuinely interesting debates on here - and those that most of the better read and free-thinking minds on here have been, one way or another, engaged in ...

i look forward to see where this freely develops ...

best, BB

[durinsbane2244]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Probably someone discussed it before, please refer me to it if you've seen this question before.

As I was rereading LOTR for the n'th time, I came across Elronds speech: "On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

Does Frodo break this promise when he offers Galadriel the ring?

for one thing, it wasn't a promise. it was a statement made by elrond. for another thing, it sounds like a typical, "hey guys, if this whole thing fails...it wasn't me..."

[brownjenkins]

I think Galadriel was trying to entice Frodo into giving her the ring, a situation where he was strongly overmatched and thus not completely responsible, but her conscience won over in the end and she refused.