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01-16-2009, 02:04 AM | #1 |
Sapling
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 5
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Wraiths Before the Ring
Alright, I know this is like... an age old topic, I'm sure, but I want to get as close to a solid answer as I can get with this thing. This is one of the biggest things in all of Middle-Earth for me; both in terms of interest and importance, and how much it bugs me not knowing. What were the names and origins of the Nine??
Here's what I've got. Please contribute, either for or against whatever I might suggest. I know all Nine will never be named in terms of canon-iness, but I'm making an attempt to fill a void here. This is what I got (keep in mind that I'm not a Tolkien-atic Know-it-all ...I'm just a fan who wants to know more). Here it goes!! The Witch-King, I think, would've been Tar-Surion. Khamul is Khamul, this we know. Then I bring into question Gothmog. I'd like to believe that he was the third wraith. Not one of the Numenoreans, no doubt, but one of the other wraiths. Other than these few I ain't got much on the subject, but I'm hoping a few hardcore Tolkies will get on board with this and provide me with some sort of make-shift answer. This bugs me because important people need names, for real. So please, help me... I'd like to sleep at night. I appreciate it, and again... keep in mind that I don't know a whole lot. |
01-16-2009, 08:28 AM | #2 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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That would be the first time I hear this idea. But it could only be wrong. That's why: Quote:
The future nazgul had to be alive and active sometime after SA 1697, but likely before SA 2251 (The nazgul first appear - App B, LOTR) - that is the requirement imposed by Tolkien's dating of various events. Now to the known hypotheses about the WK's possible identity an the list of "suspicious persons". Kings of Numenor: Tar-Minastir Tar Ciryatan Tar-Atanamir For the first one the dates of the life fit, but little else. For Ciryatan and Atanamir there is a nice theory by Olmer that you can read here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12230 Pay attention to Olmer's posts on page 2. Princes of Numenor: Isilmo, father of Tar-Minastir, a very suspicious person. He should have been King, but somehow was circumvented - his sister ruled and then his son. That is all we know about the guy: Quote:
Unnamed prince, either brother or uncle of Tar-Ciryatan. Please read this excellent article by Alcuin:http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm There is also Numruzir's Tal-Elmar theory, but I can't find the link anymore . Not much is known about him. He was an Easterling and was known as Khamul, the Shadow of the East, while he was Lieutenant of Dol Guldur in the Third Age. I believe Khamul is not his original name, but an epesse acquired after he became a wraith. Quote:
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So, if you want to sleep well, compile your own list. Last edited by Gordis : 01-17-2009 at 01:06 PM. Reason: spelling |
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01-16-2009, 05:39 PM | #3 |
Peer of the realm of Sanguine
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ
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In the Akallabêth it says:"...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race." Note he didn't implicitly state "Kings". I would eliminate those in the line of succession. Why would Sauron's promise appeal to them?
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“"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling |
01-16-2009, 11:50 PM | #4 |
Sapling
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 5
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And that is what I came here for! Thanks, Gordis. I figured I was wrong about Tar-Surion because I had limited knowledge on the subject... but from the information I did have, I made what I judged to be the best possible guess. Had I read all the books I own, I would've known I was wrong from the start. However, I'm more interested in acquiring knowledge through discussion, debate and trial-and-error over time... as opposed to reading.
It's more fun to theorize and take an uneducated stab in the dark and have a high risk of being told I'm wrong... 'cause in the case that I was right I'd be a genius for it. You think "Gothmog" and "Khamul" are nick-names? This isn't something I'd considered. |
01-17-2009, 01:36 PM | #5 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Yet, "great lords" seems to imply at least persons of the Line of Elros, if not specifically princes of the Royal family. You mean what appeal could a Ring have for a King of Numenor? There were at least two possible reasons: 1. Eternal life. Ar-Pharazon let all his kingdom and all his army be destroyed for this very snare. Immortality was most appealing to any man, even a King. 2. Sorcery. If a King was interested in supernatural (and every King had some hobby, as we learn from UT), then one of the Nine rings that provided an access into the Spirit World would open new horizons in sorcery. Quote:
On the contrary, I totally see a name like that granted by Sauron to one of his top servants in recompense for faithful service. "Khamûl". Nobody knows what language is that. A good guess would be the Black tongue. If so, please compare the words "nazgûl" and "Khamûl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery: "nazgûl"= "ringwraith" "nazg"="ring" "ûl"="wraith" My guess that "ûl" in "Khamûl" also means "wraith", "shadow". And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgûl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth. The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "Khamul" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land". Last edited by Gordis : 01-17-2009 at 01:54 PM. |
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01-20-2009, 11:07 PM | #6 |
Sapling
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 5
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I thought '-gul' meant magic (or sorcery)...
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01-21-2009, 02:14 AM | #7 | |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
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“-gul” as in “Morgul” means “sorcery” in Sindarin. “-ûl” as in “Nazgûl” means “wraith” in Black Speech, a language invented by Sauron and used mostly by him and his chief servants. That he borrowed from or used (or abused) Sindarin or to make it would not be surprising; and we know he used an Elvish script to inscribe his spell on the One Ring.
Tolkien says that the Kings of Númenor were embalmed in a manner similar to that of Egyptian pharaohs, and that they were all interred in valley called Noirinan at the south slope of Meneltarma, a forerunner of Rath D*nen, the “Silent Street” in Minas Tirith where the kings and stewards of Gondor were buried beneath mount Mindolluin. Khamûl is the only Nazgûl definitely named. I think Gordis is right on target with the meaning of his name: I had not considered it before. (Nazgûl are Gordis’ especial interest.) RotK Gothmog was the Lieutenant of (Minas) Morgul and took command of the army attacking Minas Tirith after the demise of the Witch-king, so lots of folks believe he might also be a Nazgûl. Iron Crown Enterprises developed a popular game called Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP), similar to D&D or Traveller (if anyone remembers that oldie), in which they assigned names to the other eight Nazgûl. (ICE went bankrupt in 2000 and lost its license; MERP survives on the web. ICE also developed some really neat, highly-detailed maps of Middle-earth that are also non-canonical: in other words, you can’t use them to prove a point in a Tolkien-related forum – though sometimes folks try!) Here are ICE’s names for the Nazgûl, courtesy of Encyclopedia of Arda (a great resource):
If it is of any interest, I have recently read that Quote:
Last edited by Alcuin : 01-21-2009 at 02:28 AM. |
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01-21-2009, 04:16 AM | #8 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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01-21-2009, 10:16 AM | #9 | |
Salt Miner
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Location: gone to Far Harad
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If by “factual basis”, you mean something written by Tolkien, no, I don’t believe it does. (I should willingly be corrected on this point by another ’Mooter.) |
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01-21-2009, 10:28 AM | #10 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
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Quote:
I'm asking because some of them look amateurish and not Tolkienesque at all |
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01-21-2009, 11:18 AM | #11 |
Salt Miner
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Oh, if you want to speculate on the source of the names, I should say published Tolkien material at the time, D&D, and such late-night imbibings and libations as were common in the early- to middle-1980s.
“Er-Murazor” and “Adûnaphel” sound as if they might be faux-Adûnaic; “Adûnaphel” has –adun, Adûnaic for “west” in it. “Akhorahil” sounds as if it might be an attempt to get at a Sindarin-sounding name. (Akhorahil seems to have been called “the Blind Sorcerer” or “Akhorahil the Blind”.) “Er-Murazor”, “Akhorahil”, and “Adûnaphel” might all be worked out from what was known about Adûnaic and Sindarin at the time: you might start with the appendix to Silmarillion and see what was borrowed from the glossary; and there were other books published on Tolkien’s languages in the early 1980s, too. (I have one of them around here someplace…) “Ji Indur Dawndeath” sounds like a character in Star Wars; it strikes me that it could be some corruption of the English “engender dawn death”, as in, “kill them at dawn”. “Ren the Unclean” kind of rhymes, and “Dwar of Waw” sort of alliterates. “Hoarmurath of Dir” reminds me of “hoar [old] muriatic acid”, leading to “hold the muriatic acid, dear.” “Uva the Horseman” – well, I can’t get anything out of that except ova, Latin for “eggs”, but then my imagination might not be what it used to be. As I write, these names come back to me from decades ago, standing in the bookstore looking through the game books and wondering how these guys got the license after the first Lord of the Rings movies meshed with the D&D craze, and what they paid for it. This is pure speculation and impression on my part. It all sounds silly, but I was a DM at the same time the guys at ICE were devising Nazgûl names. Coming up with names is a difficult business, especially when you have a deadline and lots of them to invent. Anybody else who has a good idea should post it. Anyone who has any real knowledge – an old ICE or MERP employee or developer, perhaps – would be most welcome! Last edited by Alcuin : 01-21-2009 at 11:25 AM. |
01-21-2009, 11:55 AM | #12 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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What does "Er-" mean, I am not sure. If "Ernil"=Prince than it would be Sindarin, crazy to use it with Adunaic name. And I never saw "Ernil" form a prefix "Er-" like "Tar-" or "Ar-" And take Adunaphel the ICE-MERP nazgulette. Want a laugh? I think I have found out where the MERP guys took the idea. (For they are serious guys, some of their info has at least a slight basis in the canon. Hmm... very slight. ) Look here at this quote from the beginning of "A Knife in the Dark" Quote:
According to MERP she was the one who lived with Khamul in Dol Guldur away from the seven in Minas Morgul. I wonder if it was supposed to be a romance. |
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