Gandalf the White

[Elemmírë]

A new annoying, semi-philosophical question for you to ponder! Aren't you so very lucky?

"Yes, I am white now," said Gandalf. "Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been" (The Two Towers, The White Rider).

At first glance, I don't think there is anything extraordinary in this quote. Ironic, yes; especially remarkable, no.

However, on second thought, I wonder what exactly is meant by this line. How can he almost be Saruman? In essence, the two of them appear to be completely different. Saruman is a Maia of Aulë, one concerned primarily with skill. Gandalf, on the other hand, dwelt in Lórien but was taught by Nienna. To me, their backgrounds seem completely different. It is almost like saying... that Finarfin is Fëanor as he should have been...

Am I analysing this quote too much? Does it simply mean that Gandalf has been sent back to play the role that Saruman should have filled?

Or is the nature of the Maiar different and more... fluid, for lack of a better word, than I had imagined? Just what sort of transformation did Gandalf truly undergo?

[inked]

Gandalf achieved what Saruman could have achieved. However, Eru gave his creatures free will. Gandalf was the only one of the Istari who achieved the goals for which they had been sent. The two blue Istari pass out of the story, though there are interesting speculations about their achievements or lack of them on some threads here. Radagast the Brown became over-enamoured of the birds, beasts and creatures (non-sentient) of Middle Earth. Saruman became enamoured of the way he would run the world and the power to accomplish that, secondarily overcome by the lust for that power in the Ring rather than Eru. Gandalf was the only one who remained true to the mission by his choices. It is true that he may not have been the best and brightest of the Istari, his humility often suggests that is how he views himself, but in this sentence we see what faithfulness to Eru can accomplish - even through the apparent catastrophe of self-sacrifice and death.

Had the Istari remained true to Eru and their mission, many calamities might have been avoided. Tolkien makes again obvious that choices make the man, the hobbit, the elf, the dwarf, and the Istari and Maiar and Ainur.

Choose wisely! And know that even so for much gain to one's self, society, or world, much must be ventured and nothing is assured save by such hopeful faith!

edit: It is instructive to read this passage against Saruman's words to Gandalf when the latter was captive at Isenguard and Galadriel's temptation ( or re-temptation to a previous error, in fact). Thus Tolkien gives us pictures of the Saruman, tempted and falling into self-will, Galadriel, fallen and repentant and redeeming her self in her refusal of the Ring, and Gandalf, the one who though tempted remains true.

It was after the Silmarillion became available that this meditation became clear. The great background of Creation, fall of the rebellious Ainur, and history of elves, dwarves, and men was needed to put it all together.

[Blackheart]

perhaps... If Olorian had been appointed as head of the istari before they left Valinor he would have been wearing white...

And, when he got back from Valinor after a little balrog induced side trip, he was the head of the istari, because Saruman had been revoked due to his treachery...

But if you remember, Gandalf had some difficulty recalling his "mortal" life. The istari "appeared" as aged men. But that was not their true form. It wasn't even their chosen form.

It's possible that their forms were chosen for them, and they were given 'roles' to play. Saruman chose not to play his role in the intended manner, so a new player was sent. It happened to be Olorian, this time garbed as "the white".

It's definately more than a mere role, however, if you are given a new body to inhabit....

[squinteyedsoutherner]

According to unfinished tales Manwe himself selected Olorin (Gandalf) to go as the third messenger to Middle Earth. Olorin replied that he was too weak for the task and that he feared Sauron. Manwe replied "all the more reason he should go" and he commanded Olorin to do so. Varda then looked up and said "not as the third" and Saruman remembered it.

Saruman's ability to succeed in the task was in question right from the beginning at least by Manwe and Varda and probably others as well. I don't think His failure was much of a surprise to the "wise". Cirdan gave Gandalf the ring of fire and Galadriel wanted him to head the council so whatever Manwe and Varda saw was also seen right away in ME by the Elves as well.

It is also very "Tolkien" to have the strongest and proudest fail while the humble and weaker succeed because of a selfless devotion to duty.

[The Wizard from Milan]

I actually think that JRRT is equating role with essence in this quote. So after Gandalf's coming back from Moria he takes the role of Saruman and therefore he is Saruman (almost)

[mewhmag]

i agree what has been said on the original mission of the Istari.

because Saruman went beyond the original mission of help by giving advise, spiritual support and encouragement for the people of middle-earth, and misused his freedom to gain power for himself by actively taking part in the matters, he "fell", and Gandalf moved up one "rank".

just do add another perspective, note that Gandalf did not push in, but tried to convince Saruman of his duty. so Gandalf was both true in keeping the original mission and the group hierarchy. he did not choose by himself to become Gandalf the White. that seems to be an important point IMHO.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by squinteyedsoutherner

Varda then looked up and said "not as the third" and Saruman remembered it...Saruman's ability to succeed in the task was in question right from the beginning at least by Manwe and Varda and probably others as well.

Then why was he (sauruman) "the white"? That determination would have been made either in Valinor, or amongst the istari themselves.

I'm not referring to the white counsel, but the istari themselves. And there seems to have been a ranking involved, else why would it matter what color Gandalf returned as?

Literary devices are a side note, it's disingenious to say saruman was head of the istari because the author wanted to set up a straw man to fail... Sure it's dramatic and makes a good story, but it's not internally consistent.

It makes more sense if you posit that the istari sorted themselves out before they appeared on the shores of middle earth. One could imagine Saruman saying he was in charge, and the others saying.. ok, go for it.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

It is instructive to read this passage against Saruman's words to Gandalf when the latter was captive at Isenguard and Galadriel's temptation ( or re-temptation to a previous error, in fact). Thus Tolkien gives us pictures of the Saruman, tempted and falling into self-will, Galadriel, fallen and repentant and redeeming her self in her refusal of the Ring, and Gandalf, the one who though tempted remains true.

Nice post Inked. Gandalf is also tempted at Bag End, but refuses to even touch the Ring. I think he was tempted because he explains that he would have started our using the Ring for good, but would eventually succumb to its evil. At this point, he wasn't particularly versed in Ring-lore, having to go do some research before he can confirm it is in fact the One Ring (something like 16 years later).

You guys all make very interesting points - nice thread El.

Didn't Galadriel say somewhere she had wanted Gandalf to be the leader? This suggests that she and maybe other Elves either had influence over the situation, or at least could observe it happening.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Or is the nature of the Maiar different and more... fluid, for lack of a better word, than I had imagined? Just what sort of transformation did Gandalf truly undergo?

There is a passage in 'Letters' about this. I cannot quote it to you right now, but in essence it says that Gandalf truly died, as we know in combat with the Balrog. His willingness to sacrifice himself, and his willingness to give up his chances of a personal success, was the key to his transformation. He was received by Eru, enhanced both in power and wisdom, and then sent back to fulfil his task.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Artanis wrote :Manwë's words could be taken to mean that Gandalf's humbleness and self-doubt, and his respect for Sauron's power, made him a very different personality from Saruman, and that he therefore would become a perfect companion.

I agree with that except I'm not so sure that I would say companion. I think of the two blue wizards as companions since there is specific mention of friendship between them. Saruman is a little "ticked-off" by Varda's comment in UT before he becomes "flesh" he is also jealous of Cirdan's gift to Gandalf after he becomes "flesh". I think this personality trait along with his pride was probably not unknown in Valinor and given the nature of the task I can't see it raising absolutely no concern at all among the Valar - I just think the upside of Saruman's potential and the inclusion of Olorin out-weighed those concerns.

Artanis wrote: I don't think the Valar suspected that Saruman would fail his task and fall, anymore than the others of the Istari

I disagree here, I think Manwe (at least) had more faith in Olorin than any other.

Dunedain wrote: Remember, Manwe thought that Melkor repented when he sued for pardon the second time because there was no evil in him so he could not comprehend evil.

Very good point, I'm sticking with my views for now, but I had not remembered that.