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10-20-2004, 05:31 PM | #1 |
Elven Maiden
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marriage
Sorry if this is a dumb thread, but my mom and I were discussing the topic for hours and never really came to any conclusions. I just wanted to see what everyone else had to say.
What is marriage? If you "marry" someone without the church or any legal marriage is it still marriage? Also, for what cultures is it true that to be officially married, you have to have sexual intercourse (therefore making it impossible for gays to marry depending on your definitions and so on)? I'll admit that the real topic of our discussion was same-sex marriage, but I'd rather not get into that. I just want to hear your opinions on marriage in general. If you agree that sexual intercourse is necessary to finalize the marriage, how do you explain the tradition of the "Virgin" Mary? |
10-20-2004, 05:47 PM | #2 |
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Marriage is whatever the people involved want it to be, I think.
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10-20-2004, 06:37 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Marriage is the union of two oppositely sexed individuals into a union for the continuation and development of families. It is a universal human institution which has been present in all known societies. It has taken various forms within that definition. Thus some societies have polygamy (one husband and more than one wife), polyandry (one wife and more than one husband), and the union of one man to one woman (monogamy). Variations on these types of basic arrangements have existed, of course.
Western civilization has been dominantly monogamous. And for the bulk of history marriages have been arranged and not the result of 'falling in love'. It has been used a political arrangement and a means of aligning finances as well. Committed relationships between same sexed couples have NOT been marriage in human cultures. This is a concept originating in the 20th century and currently being promulgated as a civil rights issues. Many do not find it to be a civil rights issue requiring the alteration of human experience and historical reality, but one which can be addressed in merely legal terms. So there is a societal/cultural aspect to the concept of marriage. I am unaware of any religious definition of marriage other than the joining of oppositely sexed individuals. By the by, sexual congress or intercourse is not required for marriage. It is the consummation of the marriage covenant or contract (religious vs legal conceptions, pardon the pun). In the case at point, Mary and Joseph, the Jewish law regarded an espoused (engaged) couple as man and wife. If Mary had been with child by another man she would have been guilty of adultery and eligible for death by stoning. That was the reason Joseph was "minded to put her away privately" to avoid the legal consequences that would accrue to her. The doctrine of the Virgin Birth of Jesus of Nazareth is not the same as that of Mary's perpetual virginity (for those who hold it). Does that help?
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10-20-2004, 06:51 PM | #4 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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inked covered the history pretty well... though there are some details left out... intermarriage between those of different faiths was forbidden in many cultures (and still is within some belief systems today)
interracial marriage was also almost unheard of till very recently and "marriage" outside of religious institutions has been legal in the US since it's founding so the definition, like everything else in human society changes over time the only constant i see is that marriage is a "permanent" social contract (and sometimes legal) between two (or more) humans until one of those humans changes their mind
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10-20-2004, 07:16 PM | #5 |
Elven Maiden
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Hmm, interesting comments. I shall ponder.
In case anyone was confused, this is what I meant about Mary: My mom says that in ("well, probably...") every civilization, there has to be sexual intercourse to consummate (I forgot that word- thanks inked^^) the marriage. Otherwise, the marriage is invalid. I think, according to tradition (at least of the Catholic church) that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Even forgetting Jesus for the moment, Mary was said to be a virgin for her whole life. She also happened to be married, and lived with her husband (right?). So according to my mom, she must have been living in sin. That's why I didn't really think it was totally true. Also, what if one or both people were severely mutilated to the point where they were unable to "consummate" the marriage? Are they not allowed to get married? |
10-20-2004, 07:27 PM | #6 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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one would assume that they were married according to hebrew tradition, in which consummation takes place after the marriage, and while a "tradition"... i do not believe it was "required"
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10-21-2004, 03:18 AM | #7 |
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Marriage is for wieners.
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10-23-2004, 11:13 PM | #8 | |
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10-23-2004, 11:39 PM | #9 |
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Hmm... just a thought I had, but committed relationships between same sex couples was the norm in a very important Western society - Ancient Greece. That's why homosexuality used to be referred to as "Greek love." Of course, they also had wives as well, often chosen by their partner...
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10-21-2004, 01:36 PM | #10 | ||||||
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Lol Inked, nice poem.
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You can say same-sex marriages have been very uncommon until now. Quote:
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10-21-2004, 02:59 PM | #11 |
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Yes, but it also says that Mary had not been (in the sexual sense) with a man. That makes it pretty clear she was a virgin in the sexual sense!
I disagree with the Catholic tradition that Mary remained a virgin her whole life. I don't think God would be that mean to Joseph! And the Bible talks of Jesus's brothers and sisters, altho the Catholics say that can be translated near relatives. To me, it's a more natural and straightforward reading that Mary did NOT stay a virgin after Jesus's birth. Why should she? It just seems an unnatural thing. After all, God Himself instituted marriage, including sex.
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10-21-2004, 07:58 PM | #12 |
Elven Maiden
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Yeah, I know. I've heard the thing about "virgin" really being young girl, and about Jesus having siblings, etc., but Mary being a virgin for life is a tradition too according to some people. My mom is Catholic, by the way, so... Who knows? I was just using it as an example. If some people can accept that Mary was perpetually a virgin, they must accept that she married without sex.
Also, I read a long time ago (though I looked it up again to make sure) in a lives of saints book that Saint Cecilia, though she was married (against her will, I believe) to a pagan (I think it was a pagan...) she desired to remain a virgin. He consented, I guess. It's just another example. |
02-27-2005, 01:28 PM | #13 | ||||
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Moreover, I don't know whether in those times in that tribe, consummation was a foundamental part of marriage or not EDIT: I had forgotten the most important part: yay for same-sex marriage Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 02-27-2005 at 01:30 PM. |
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02-27-2005, 01:39 PM | #14 |
Elven Maiden
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That's a good way of thinking about it, Wizard from Milan (do you have a nickname?). There are a lot of different kinds of marriage. That's an easier way of thinking about it. Of course, that seems to make my marriage to a Coke bottle a few years ago valid, haha. But, that's why I was wondering about different groups to see what, if anything, is the universal definition of marriage. What is shared with most groups?
As for the "Virgin Mary" thing, the whole point of that was that my mom was saying that gays cannot officially marry because you have to have sexual intercourse and be capable of producing offspring. (I asked her about what if a man or woman was not fertile for whatever reason if they could still marry. I was surprised that she actually said no.) I never got a good answer concerning the problem of there being a tradition of a virgin who was married though. I'm not asking if it's true, I'm just saying that if sexual intercourse was necessary for all marriages then the tradition wouldn't exist, one would think. I'm agnostic, by the way. |
02-27-2005, 04:29 PM | #15 | ||
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I think I have given my best shot at the virgin Mary question. I think others more expert than I am should give theirs |
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03-15-2005, 03:42 PM | #16 |
Elf Lord
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bump
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03-15-2005, 03:52 PM | #17 | ||
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I always thought that, in the context of the culture of the writers of the Bible and the people about whom they were writing, the word 'virgin' mean a young woman. Now over many years, the meaning of the word has changed to mean someone who has never had sexual intercourse. If the modern meaning is applied to the ancient text, you could say that Mary had never had sex. However, I don't think this is what the writers of the Bible were thinking.
The Wizard from Milan has another nickname coined by Chrys - Il Milano Mago. In my opinion, a couple's ability to produce off-spring is not an important factor of marriage in today's society. Where would you draw the line anyway? Are you married only once you're pregnant? Or when the baby is born? What if you could have children, but choose not to? Would you just not be married until you actively try to have children? If this was societies accepted definition of marriage, how on earth would you legislate this?
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03-15-2005, 03:52 PM | #18 |
The Intermittent One
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ok so-i aint yet seubscribed to this thread
i am now |
06-07-2006, 11:34 AM | #19 |
Sapling
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I can't seem to find my original post
My original post seems to have dissappeared, it was on page 25, but the links only go up to page 18 instead of 25 when I hit the last page link, so I'm going to try posting this one more time, but if it is a duplication, I apologize. feel free to remove it.
Marriage throughout History until now has been about male-female procreative unions. Statistics show that when procreation is contracepted, and when cohabitation is rampant, the tendency to use another person for pleasure and discard them when you're tierd of them increases. This is why Homosexual unions are open unions-allowing for multiple partners and heartbreak after heartbreak. This is why Gays have a high incidence of suicide, and gays on average have a shorter lifespan. Marriages that are not contraceptive have lower divorce rates statistically. Divorce rates go up when contraception is used or cohabitation has occurred outside of marriage. Marriage recognizes that there is a purpose for sex beyond satisfying unbridled lust. The fact that you have to contracept to prevent pregnancy is an indication of one of those purposes. The other purpose of sex beyond procreation is to give oneself to one's spouse in an act of self giving that is also truly life-giving. Homosexual unions are closed to the gift of life, and therefore the procreative potential of the sexual act cannot be realized in such a union because there is no sexual complimentarity between the two persons. You cannot give yourself as a gift to another if you are merely using them for your own benefit until you get tierd of them, and the rampant promiscuity prevalent in many homosexual unions doesn't demonstrate a loving, committed relationship where the couple are willing to make sacrifices for one another until death. It bespeaks a relationship that has only one purpose: pleasure for me until you bore me. Infatuation can be mistaken for true Love, but real Love is a gift of self. Giving oneself entirely to another means in hard times as well as in good times. I believe that clause is written into the wedding vows, traditionally. Further, there are people who have recovered from homosexual orientations and had families. Genetic has gotten to be like the insanity plea-its a way of saying it's not my fault-love me or leave me. If someone had a predisposition genetically to pedophillia I don't think people would be as accepting, although there are some dutch scientists who think fathers should unite with their children. Further, in our supposedly tolerant society, Tolerance has become an oxymoron. If I have a position on an Issue, and lots of other people agree, you're tolerant only if you agree with me. If you dare to disagree I'll start calling you names. That kind of tolerance is a blooming double-standard. |
03-10-2011, 11:00 PM | #20 |
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Marriage was originally a religious ceremony and rite. Kings and queens were married by the Church, and clashed with the church when they didn't get to change marriage to suit their taste, as any fan of the Tudors series and Henry VIII well knows.Marriage has undergone tremendous change over thousands of years. Today in few parts of the world and in few societies, marriage is an established social structure for a primary relationship between a Man and Women based on equality and shared bonding.
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