|
01-23-2007, 02:46 AM | #1 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Gender Issues
This thread is an off-shoot of the Homosexual marriage II thread, where we got talking about gender issues as related to that debate.
This is the thread for any and all gender issues you'd like to discuss. Let's start with the "women are nurturing, men are aggressive" debate. Insidious Rex and myself, and possibly other Mooters had a response to this statement. I hope those Mooters will join the discussion in this thread. Quote:
Secondly, the statement implies that the trait supposedly possessed by most women causes problems for the gender. Why? What problems? What did you mean by all this anyway Lief? This too is completely baseless.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
01-23-2007, 04:59 AM | #2 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
My strongest evidence on this matter comes from the political science profession. I've been taught in my college Political Science class that this is accepted throughout the political science profession, and female politicians know it's true as well. That's why, according to my liberal, Democratic Political Science Professor Stew Frame, who is personally in support of women being in political positions, there's a dual problem among many female politicians. While many are nurturing and not very aggressive (which can be a problem in times of national crisis. Take Jeanet Rankin, for instance, the first woman in the Congress. She voted against US involvement in both WW1 and WW2), many others, who are well acquainted with the statistics about women's generally being not very aggressive, tend to attempt to prove that it is not true as regards them. Consequently they become overly aggressive and cause lots of problems, trying to prove that they can be as aggressive or strong a leader as any man.
So that's a reverse kind of problem that has also been noted in the political science profession about women in politics. They tend to be either overly aggressive or overly nurturing, without all that much between the two extremes. That's what's taught in the political science branch, as learned from their statistical studies. As I mentioned, the professor who taught me this personally approves of women being in politics because in his view, having more pacifism in the government is just going to be helpful. I disagree, though, for I don't want our government being pushed over the edge in violent aggression, or held back from responding in crisis because of too much attempting reconciliation. Of course men can be on one extreme or the other too, depending on the person, but they don't as a gender tend toward the extremes anywhere near as much as women do. So now to more sources of evidence to back my claims, aside from the one professor. One citation is International Politics on the World Stage, eleventh edition, by John T. Rourke, page 67. He doesn't attempt to say whether the observed differences between the genders are based on biological differences between men and women or socialization (I have different sources that provide evidence that biology is a key difference between men and women's personalities, that I'll get to soon), but he definitely makes the point from a number of studies that women tend to be more nurturing and less aggressive than men. My next citation is Essentials of American Government by Tim Chervenak, pages 346 and 348. Here's a quote from that book: Quote:
According to the Genetics Organization, major differences between roles of men and women have been observed across the vast majority of civilizations and cultures in our world, and these differences tend to be the same. Men consistently have been the leaders and the fighters in the military, the aggressive ones, while women have tended to take care of the children and take more social type roles. If men and women were mentally pretty much the same, you would see a roughly equivalent number of societies in the world where women were the leaders and military to the number where men fulfilled that function. History shows no such sameness. In fact, there are very few societies in which women have had much of a role at all- let alone a dominant one. This is a strong evidence that the observed differences between men and women aren't cultural, but are rather biological, because otherwise you would see many more matriarchal societies in history and societies where women were in the armed forces. For another evidence (though a much smaller one), here's an excerpt about male and female brains differences from a book written by licensed psychotherapist Thayer White MA MFT: Quote:
http://www.helpself.com/brain.htm
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||
01-23-2007, 12:28 PM | #3 |
Elf Lady
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale
Posts: 8,588
|
There is a trilogy written by Thea Beckmann about what a country would be like if it was ruled by women. It is described as a peaceful country without hunger or poverty. Off course later on a country ruled by men discovers this country and since there is hunger and poverty and war in their country they wage war on "the female country".
Lief, you say you do not agree with women in the government because they are too extreme which can be dangerous in certain situations. You probably mean situations like the terrorist attacks (caused by men who would die partly for the thought of sharing a heaven with 40 virgins, not taking in consideration that after one time they won't be virgins anymore) or natural disasters (how long did it take for the Bush-administration, which is a dominantly male administration, to take action after Katrina?) or evil dictators who are rumored to have atomic weapons (invented by a man, the dictators and their organization also being male) or something of the sorts? You also mention that the first woman in the Congress voted against participation in WW1 and WW2, but how many men voted against? That is something you do not mention but is necessary information if you want to make a fair judgement. I am sure there may be biological evidence or something to support the claim that men and women are different, but I cannot agree with your political views. By the way, I mostly use my right side brains according to some test as apparently do a lot of women. There are also a lot of men using their left side more. Once again, that was according to some test I made and not exactly a biology book, but still I think there are some contradictorary results to be found even in official sources. On a whole different note, I just watched the Hunchback of the Notre Dame again after many years and the evil judge Frolo is actually burning down Paris because he is *how to put this nicely?* in physical love with Esmeralda... off course he claims it is her fault for bewitching his senses and not the fault of his own body and mind for betraying him...
__________________
Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
01-23-2007, 12:59 PM | #4 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|||||
01-23-2007, 11:42 PM | #5 | ||||
Elf Lady
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale
Posts: 8,588
|
Quote:
Quote:
By the way, why is this all about the shortcomings of women in politics or leadership functions? I am sure there is a far longer list of men failing in their leading positions... But since our societies have mainly been patriarchical ever since our races changed from being nomads to settling in one place, the line of argument has ben set I guess. Women and men might be equal, but everyone has to fit into a model created by thousands of years of male dominance. Now what I am going to say next is about stereotypes, is my personal experience and I have absolutely no official source to back it up (allthough I am sure there are) so don't kill me for that OK? Back in my (Western) home country I am not supposed to say I like cooking, because that means I am behaving too girlish and women of our time have to be strong and prove that they are equal to men blablabla. But that I like sports like basketball, soccer, etc. is a good thing. Here in Japan I am not supposed to say I like sports (in fact I am not allowed to join in open soccertournaments organized by the people of the dorm) and being able to carry my own bag is something of a rarity when there are boys around (In case there are no boys, all the girls are all of a sudden perfectly able to carry their own bags themselves I still get a shock when I see boys carrying those silly little handbags in which you cannot put more than perhaps one pen for their girlfriends...) but when I say I like cooking, people are all of sudden relieved that they can find some girlish thing about me or something. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
||||
01-24-2007, 04:01 AM | #6 | |||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And also, are you suggesting that all humans originated in one single place at one point in time, as in the Bible? Just for the sake of clarification . Because if that's not what you're suggesting, then isn't it an incredible coincidence that many different tribes decided to be patriarchal independently from one another? A third question: If this difference is cultural, as you suggest, why didn't the culture change sooner in various places? We have observed massive culture shifts within tiny spaces of time, such as changes in religion that have swept through whole countries in a matter of just a few years, and political changes that have tossed aside whole ways of life in no time. Why, in all the turmoil and change of thousands of years of civilization (and if you believe modern scientific information on the origins of humanity, hundreds of thousands of years before that), was this bit of "culture" not changed too, in more than a tiny handful of places and times? Quote:
Maybe I got a little carried away. And no, of course you don't have to have any additional source to back up your personal experience. You are the official source, when it comes to your personal experience . Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-24-2007 at 04:03 AM. |
|||||||
01-23-2007, 03:06 PM | #7 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
01-23-2007, 03:25 PM | #8 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
I'm not a woman, so I don't feel I have as much right to bring this argument about female relationships up. I've heard women argue it before, though, and claim from their understanding of female psychology (being women and knowing them) that only men should be in high political office.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-23-2007 at 05:15 PM. |
|
01-23-2007, 06:19 PM | #9 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
In many ways it was more a story of nature against industry, like Tolkien's Shire, than female against male: the matriarchal, isolated country chose not to pursue industrial technologies to keep their vast natural continent intact while the patriarchal empire had much more contact with other lands and needed constant new resources and land for its unbridled industries and trade.
__________________
We are not things. |
|
01-23-2007, 01:03 PM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Women who are currently successful, or have been successful in politics in the past, have to fight their way up a patriarchy to get there. This weeds out a vast number of women. Therefore, you are not comparing like with like when you compare men in power and women in power. For every Janet Rankin, I will show you a Margaret Thatcher. (or a Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Angela Merkhel, Queen Elizabeth II, etc etc) A lot is made of how men and women differ, e.g. in brain structure and penis existence, and I'm sure many of these things have substance to them However, it has been my experience that, in terms of professional performance the similarities are far, far greater than the differences. IMO it has been a major restriction on our society that women have not been able to make the same contributions as men over the centuries. |
|
01-23-2007, 01:33 PM | #11 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
But you make an interesting point, and maybe it's true. Quote:
Quote:
I've seen a big difference between men and women in my life, and have learned to treat the two genders differently from the painful experience of making some women mad at me, as a result of my treating them like I'd treat men. I'm more careful now, partly because I've now read part of Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, and that has helped a lot with gender relationship problems in my life. Quote:
I believe women should have the right to vote, so women's suffrage and feminism in the beginning were great. And I still approve of the efforts of some feminists to get femininity more celebrated in culture. Those feminists realize that they don't have to be masculine, but rather they try to celebrate femininity, and I think that that's very wholesome for society.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||
01-23-2007, 01:41 PM | #12 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Hey, I made a joke. But seriously, if we're wanting to study gender differences systematically then I don't think political science has too much to offer. What do you think of the Catch-22 implicit in the whole "if you're nurturing, you're not up to it; if you're up to it, you're too aggressive" thing? The best book I ever read about all this stuff was The Flounder, by Gunter Grasse. Edit: I don't work in government, but I do work for government from time to time, so I have come into contact with politicians regularly over the past ten years. I should add that the true leaders, the charismatic and highly effective people that rise to the very top, tend to be very different from the "also-rans". Last edited by The Gaffer : 01-23-2007 at 01:47 PM. |
|
01-23-2007, 01:48 PM | #13 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Quote:
Remember Holst's subtitle: Uranus, the Magician
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
|
01-23-2007, 02:14 PM | #14 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|||
01-23-2007, 10:13 PM | #15 | |||||||||||||||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Wow, less than 24 hours and there's already 18 posts! If this thread keeps up like this, I probably won't respond to everyone, so I'll apologise in advance.
One thing I think it would be useful to avoid in this thread is the whole "this man/woman possesses these certain qualities, therefore the entire gender does"-style arguments. They are sometimes appropriate, but I don't want this thread to turn into a long list of politicians' names. I read your first post in its entirety Lief (very well written BTW), but I feel I can address it by quoting your later posts, and people's responses to your post. Quote:
For example, if someone has to fight tooth and nail to earn respect in their chosen profession, they might become aggressive about it. Aggression could be the only way they can succeed. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
However, it can't be completely horrible if it has helped you. I'd caution you that treating assertive, egalitarian women like myself as though we're from another planet would be unsuccessful. But don't worry, I don't lose my temper easily. I should write a rebuttle book called Human Beings are all from Earth. Quote:
If that person is a woman? Great. If that person is a man? Great. If that person doesn't have a gender? Great. Because when it comes to qualifications for jobs, gender is totally irrelevant. Quote:
Okay, I wouldn't really have beaten you up. You're all the way in California. Sexism is one of the few things that really gets me angry. One of the few people that I have lost my temper at is this sexist guy who I used to train with in karate. Man, I can't stand that guy. But he doesn't train any more so it doesn't matter. Quote:
Quote:
Probably you've just had a lapse in your otherwise considerable intelligence. Quote:
I think the draft should apply to both women and men equally (for those of appropriate age and fitness), but that would absolutely decimate our society in a war. Quote:
Also, bear in mind that while Political Science is a science, it is also an art. The Political Science major is part of the Arts faculty at universities, not the faculty of Science. It is difficult to conduct studies in the arts sometimes. There are factors that we aren't aware of, sometimes the subject changes his behaviour because of the study, and other problems that I forget now, but learned in a class called Forests and Society, which was a Sociology class. (Sociology has the same problem.) Quote:
Small aside: However, your political scientists seem to have ignored Canadian politics. Just like Canadians! Ba-dum-tish. But seriously, there are a large number of politicians who are women in Canada, and I can't think of a single one of them who fits into your nurturing/overly-aggressive mold, except maybe Hedy Fry. But her comment that people in Prince George, BC were burning crosses on their lawns probably stems from her being a total idiot rather than being overly-aggressive. Back to my main argument: So, from your studies, you can talk about political science. You can't use a group of political science studies to make inferences about women in politics, but you cannot then make inferences about all women. The reason you can't do this is because this provides a biased sample for your inference. If you wanted to make your current argument, you'd have to back it up with studies about men and women of all ages, nationalities, religions, ages, etc. (as much as diversity as possible, and as many people as possible) in order to make an inference about all people. In other words, it's completely faulty to say, that female politicians are mainly nurturing and male politicians are mainly aggressive, and therefore all women and all men are also respectively nurturing and aggressive. Quote:
Or, what did you mean? EDIT: Quote:
If you want to also make this argument though, of course you can. (The argument is ridiculous, but you can actually make this argument, unlike some random, unnamed people who aren't posting in this thread. )
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Nurvingiel : 01-23-2007 at 10:16 PM. |
|||||||||||||||
01-23-2007, 11:31 PM | #16 | ||||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Quote:
http://jewishworldreview.com/kathleen/parker121506.php3 The question is meant to point to the structure of family. Who is baby's biggest bond with? Mom. Mom is the one you go to usually, because mom was the one you were always with as a child. Let me make this more relevant: the mothers serving in Iraq and Aghanistan. Daddy dying is pain beyond compare, but when Mom dies it's a whole other world for that child. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
||||
01-24-2007, 03:26 AM | #17 | ||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
For instance, my Mom tells me how to do even the very simplest things that I already know how to do and have been doing for years. Sometimes, I feel insulted to think, "how could she doubt that I knew how to do that?" But according to that book, this is because women tend to just want to help men and this is one of their ways of trying to help people. No harm is intended- the desire is common and very innocent. So learning what that book taught me, I realized that my Mom meant nothing by this and so we get along very well now in spite of things like that. And men tend to be very achievement oriented and doers, and will hence tend to try offering solutions when women just come to them for sympathy. That can lead to misunderstandings among both genders. So the book just talks about general differences between the genders that show up over and over and over, and it explains what they are. Knowing about them can help improve people's relationships. It's not intended to treat people in absurd ways, but rather to treat them in a way that enhances the relationship for both parties, and also it helps people to understand why people of the other gender do some of the apprently crazy things they do. It just helps people with their relationships with people of other genders. Nothing else. But if you think that everyone has the same kind of brain, or highly, highly similar brains, and that gender differences don't make much difference, really, then I can understand your finding the book useless. You're denying what psychologists constistantly find to be true, though. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The fact that this gender difference exists over all these different countries is a strong evidence that this is at least one significant difference between the two genders. And of course it'll hop around some. I'm not saying that women will never support war. But I am saying that there is an obvious and potentially worrisome difference between the genders. I don't believe most women would be anywhere near so likely as men to take strong action in times of crisis, and that means that women in politics could put our nation into jeopardy. Quote:
Quote:
Belgians- Men, 53%, women, 40%. British- Men, 62%, women, 53%. French- Men, 54%, women, 49%. Germans- Men, 60%, women, 50%. Israelis- Men, 90%, women, 86%. Italians- Men, 50%, women, 24%. Japanese- Men, 14%, women, 7%. Mexicans- Men, 90%, women, 86%. Nigerians- Men, 43%, women, 41%. Russians- Men, 47%, women, 39%. Turks- Men, 45%, women, 47%. Americans- Men, 62%, women, 41%. In all but one of the countries polled, men were more likely than women to favor war. Many women have been in favor of wars at various times, for sure, and there is going to be variation within each gender, from person to person. But overall, it is clear from the available data that this attitude toward war is one symptom of a broader gender difference that exists. Seeing that these differences between men and women exist across nationalities and religious boundaries also strongly points toward a biological explanation. Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-24-2007 at 04:47 AM. |
||||||||||||||
01-23-2007, 11:55 PM | #18 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Entmoot Presidential Candidates - on the ISSUES | Valandil | General Messages | 34 | 05-01-2007 10:31 PM |
social issues | gimli7410 | General Messages | 4 | 01-23-2007 06:50 PM |
Image issues. | durinsbane2244 | Feedback and Tech Problems | 12 | 08-20-2006 09:50 AM |
Weird turn-ons/ first things noticed in opposite gender | Sminty_Smeagol | General Messages | 339 | 05-27-2003 09:11 PM |
Where will TT end? and other editing issues | IronParrot | Lord of the Rings Movies | 53 | 02-16-2002 11:16 PM |