|
08-06-2004, 05:02 PM | #1 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Animal morality: are humans merely animals?
[EDIT: This thread was split from the original Animal Rights/Dissection debate since it veered into a new direction that deserved its own thread. (And a perfect time for me to try out this splitting tool, yay.) The topic of this new thread is to discuss morals or morality in animals. -Eärniel]
Quote:
What I disagree with is the opinion that we are MERELY animals. Quote:
As I said, it's my OPINION that we are not merely animals, and I think the evidence points this way. I wanted to point out that it is also an OPINION that we ARE merely animals. Quote:
Do you think it's because of moral issues?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Earniel : 08-12-2004 at 05:37 AM. |
|||
08-06-2004, 05:27 PM | #2 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||
08-06-2004, 07:34 PM | #3 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Then we have different opinions on both these points.
Oh well, at least we both like Tolkien!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-06-2004, 10:22 PM | #4 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hobbiton (I'm really a Hobbit, I just look like a human, and live in the U.S.A. sometimes. However, at night, I sneek out and go to Hobbiton and live with my Hobbit friends. It's sorda wierd that I don't need sleep!)
Posts: 24
|
Humans are animals, but I have to stand with Rian, that we have souls and other animal's (pigs, cows, lions est) do not. However, I would like to make the point that according to my religion we were put on this earth to take care of the animals and worship God. I don't think that if we were given a baby we would abuse it and kill it and send it off to a lab to be cut open and taken apart for students to look at, which, btw, the students are not doing scientific research, they are simpally doing an assighment. While we all say that it is okay to experament on animals to help the humans in some way, the question is still open: should we dissect? I think that in some cases we should, but I don't think that high school and below students should dissect, as the chances of them finding a cure to cancer while cutting open a pig is very slim. Anyways, about the baby, we wouldn't do that if it was a human baby, would we? And yet if it was a pig or cat then why not? We should value human life above animal life, yes of course, but why would we treat an animal in a way that if it were a human we would be calling abusive and cruel?
__________________
I am also known as Samwiselvr2008 PADFOOT LIVES!!! (stolen from Legoles) |
08-06-2004, 10:37 PM | #5 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
08-06-2004, 10:40 PM | #6 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hobbiton (I'm really a Hobbit, I just look like a human, and live in the U.S.A. sometimes. However, at night, I sneek out and go to Hobbiton and live with my Hobbit friends. It's sorda wierd that I don't need sleep!)
Posts: 24
|
Quote:
__________________
I am also known as Samwiselvr2008 PADFOOT LIVES!!! (stolen from Legoles) |
|
08-08-2004, 05:19 PM | #7 | |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 3,512
|
Quote:
i believe other animals than humans have souls too, and i believe there are other very intelligent animals too. there can be different kinds of intelligence. and if we are so very intelligent, then i'd rather see that we weren't. i do not admire the human species in any way. well, no other animal has to think if it's morally right to kill something for dinner, or care about the rainforest management; they're not the ones exterminating plants and animals.
__________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page |
|
08-08-2004, 09:24 PM | #8 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hobbiton (I'm really a Hobbit, I just look like a human, and live in the U.S.A. sometimes. However, at night, I sneek out and go to Hobbiton and live with my Hobbit friends. It's sorda wierd that I don't need sleep!)
Posts: 24
|
Quote:
__________________
I am also known as Samwiselvr2008 PADFOOT LIVES!!! (stolen from Legoles) |
|
08-09-2004, 03:23 PM | #9 | |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 3,512
|
Quote:
i admit that it's difficult to say that other animals are intelligent, since intelligence is defined by humans. EDIT: i love your sig, BoP!
__________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page Last edited by Nerdanel : 08-09-2004 at 03:26 PM. |
|
08-09-2004, 03:33 PM | #10 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
08-08-2004, 11:20 PM | #11 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 590
|
Quote:
|
|
08-09-2004, 02:14 AM | #12 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Scavenging animal remains would no doubt have turned up stuff to keep 'em warm, and don't forget, they were still quite hairy at that stage, and the climate was fairly forgiving pre-glacial maximum.
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
08-09-2004, 08:10 PM | #13 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
08-10-2004, 05:02 AM | #14 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Just a comment on the instinct thing: IIRC, there have been studies that have recorded moral behaviour in animals. For example, if you put two chimps in adjacent cages and give food to one but not the other (this is the charming sort of study that psychologists like to do), the one without food will beg for food and the other one will give it.
|
08-11-2004, 03:06 PM | #15 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
08-11-2004, 06:03 PM | #16 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
The time-span of erectus extends back significantly to the earlier austrolopithecus genus, which would no doubt have had hair (being more closely linked to the divergence between apes and humans). Also, erectus in the earlier periods of their development had significant sexual dimorphic changes between sexes akin to other apes such as gorillas. Sexual dimorphism not only provides indirect evidence of characteristics such as hair, but also social dynamics, as sexual dimorphism is associated with the "alpha male" scenario. What is significant to note is that sexual dimorphism reduced significantly towards the end of the erectus period, with females being around 80% the size of males (more akin to humans). The temperature also became more tropical, so it's likely that along with the development of more human social behaviours (in line with the reduction of dimorphism), there may well have been the loss of hair, and the darkening of the pigment of the skin - since erectus was primarily based in the middle east, and africa. It may have been possible that erectus started predating on small animals as well, and also have practiced cannibalism. Erectus is interesting, because there are changes morphically to the skeletal structure that suggest a significant change both biologically and socially over the long period that they existed.
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 08-11-2004 at 06:04 PM. |
|
08-11-2004, 07:11 PM | #17 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
(why am I getting such, um, interesting thoughts while reading the nomenclature in your post? )
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
08-09-2004, 03:44 PM | #18 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
New Note to self - check to make sure husband's passport is valid for upcoming trip to Peru to establish new site for food and goods distribution thru Children's Hunger Fund, a charity that he is a board member on. Pick up extra socks for donation to homeless ministry. Get application in for writing letters to prisoners. Admire charitable things that other Mooters do. See if my dog wants to spend some time at the animal shelter helping out in the cat section ... um, nevermind ...
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
08-09-2004, 05:22 PM | #19 | |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 3,512
|
Quote:
__________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page |
|
08-09-2004, 05:36 PM | #20 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Well, I was trying to make point in a somewhat funny manner - many of us contribute to charities and do things to help others, which, in my opinion, is something to admire. Of course, most of the world's misery is due to people's wrong choices, but there is still a lot of good things going on that can, and should be (IMO), admired.
And I was trying to remake a point that animals act only on instinct, and cannot override their instinct for "moral" reasons, while humans can. Humans are NOT merely animals, IMHO, and this opinion is strongly supported by what can be observed around us. Do you really think the human species should not be admired "in any way", or was that just kind of a generalization?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Awesome Animal News! | Lotesse | General Messages | 152 | 06-24-2009 08:25 PM |
YayGollum's Many As Well As Achingly Unique Tales Of Middle Earth Outcasts! | YayGollum | Writer's Workshop | 29 | 08-16-2007 08:28 PM |
Theological Opinions , PART II | jerseydevil | General Messages | 993 | 03-22-2007 05:19 AM |
Why you believe what you believe I | RÃan | General Messages | 1173 | 02-01-2005 03:56 PM |
Animal Rights/Dissection Debate | Ragnarok | General Messages | 39 | 08-16-2004 09:37 PM |