Origins, and Implications of Origins

[Rían]

I started a thread on the proposed changes to the Kansas science curriculum, where the proposed changes were to correct what I think (and more and more people are thinking) are imbalances in the presentation of the theory of evolution (they want to make sure some of the mainstream, peer-reviewed criticisms of the theory are taught - gasp! )

What absolutely fascinated me was the tone of the responses, across the whole nation and even in other nations, of many of those against the changes. It was hysterical, bullying, name-calling, doomsday predicting, condescending, belittling, schoolyard-taunting - in short, everything but scientific.

Why? Why?
There must be a logical reason why proposed changes to scientific curriculum in one certain area - evolution - are being discussed worldwide, in such a passionate manner, when other changes ... aren't.

It fascinated me, so I started a thread to discuss it. Since then, the thread got merged with another thread, and what I wanted to talk about has been kind of buried, and also I think the merged thread title doesn't accurately reflect what I wanted to discuss, so I"m starting this thread specifically to discuss why I (and others) think the responses against the changes had the character and tone that they did.

In short, I think it's because evolution has something to say about our origins. And what a person believes about their origins has a ripple effect in many, MANY areas of their life.

I think there's 4 questions that most people consider in some form at some time:

1. Where did I come from? (origin)
2. Where am I going? (destiny)
3. Why am I here? (purpose)
4. How shall I live? (morality)

And the answer to the first one affects the answers to all the rest of them.

And that shakes people up.

What do you guys think?


* * * * EDIT * * * *
I guess I didn't say things clearly enough, and there were some misunderstandings about the thread focus.
Here's what I wrote later on to explain more what I was wanting to discuss in this thread:

Originally Posted by Rian

I don't give a RIP about the validity of what a person thinks about their origin in this thread. I don't care if it's supported by 10 facts or 10,000 facts - or no facts!

On this thread, I want to think about and discuss this: given the premise of a particular belief about your origin, what deductions do you draw from it that affect your daily behavior and choices? And how valid (in terms of logical analysis) are those deductions?

So what I do NOT want to get into here is a discussion of the validity of evidence for a particular origin belief. There's already evidence threads around. What I DO want to discuss with anyone that would like to is how our origin beliefs affect our daily life and choices, if it does at all.

[brownjenkins]

in a nutshell i think people generally believe in what they were brought up by their parents and peers to believe, be it any certain religion or even the lack of... and once these beliefs are formed during childhood and beyond, they are very resistant to change

science attempts to take the "belief" out of the picture, and only theorize based upon things we can observe... the world around us... but even scientists are susceptible to giving "biblical" status to certain theories 'cause they seem to work so well

that said, the basis of science is change... so, in the end, most usually do come around

the basis of religion, on the other hand, is tradition and stability... so change is often unlikely, and sometimes impossible... especially in belief systems where a certain ancient text is seen as infallible... which implies that even one inaccuracy brings the whole thing down

but i think that most people on both sides are much more reasonable (i hope at least ) ... and float somewhere in the middle, willing to give each side their say and interpret it for themselves... but it is still the squeaky wheels that get the grease

[Rían]

I'm not talking about the relative strengths and weaknesses of science and religion, tho, or what areas they apply to - I'm only saying that thinking the theory of evolution is true allows people to draw conclusions about their origin from a certain subset of all possible ideas - IOW, it affects what possibilities people will consider for their origins. Many people have said the theory has removed objections they had to atheism. And an atheist obviously has a subset of ideas to choose from about origins that do NOT include a god.

What I'm saying is that evolution has implications about people's origins, and what you believe about your origin affects what you believe about some other important things, so I think that's why it's such a volatile subject, as evidenced by the analysis of the flying rhetoric!

Originally Posted by brownie

the basis of religion, on the other hand, is tradition and stability...

Maybe for some, but not for me.

[Insidious Rex]

So is this thread about evolution or "origins"?

[Rían]

hmm, let's see if I can word it better - it was started because of a specific incident - the Kansas thing - that got me thinking about origins.

It's about discussing how what a person believes their origins are affect other areas in their life. Or something like that (and it might change - I like to follow a good rabbit trail, as my title shows!)

[brownjenkins]

i think most if not all develop...

4. How shall I live? (morality)

way before they even consider the other three...

1. Where did I come from? (origin)
2. Where am I going? (destiny)
3. Why am I here? (purpose)

i've seen it in all three of my children... morality comes from life experience

the other three are things we like to muse about, but don't really effect 4. at all... they might be used as a justification, but that is after the fact

i.e. ~ two individuals can be nearly identical on 4. and have radically different ideas about 1., 2., and 3.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i think most if not all develop...

[4. How shall I live? (morality) ]

way before they even consider the other three...

But I really don't think it's that simple... (see next part)

i've seen it in all three of my children... morality comes from life experience

yes, but life experience interpreted through a worldview belief that involves origins (in the case of your kids, the worldview of you and your wife.)
For example, life experience would teach us that I can get away with stealing from my younger sibling, and what I stole is very enjoyable to me, so that if I can get away with stealing, it's good for me.

the other three are things we like to muse about, but don't really effect 4. at all... they might be used as a justification, but that is after the fact

Hang with me here a moment - this is what I mean -
ALL of us make GUESSES (hopefully educated, thoughtful ones) about what our origins are. None of us KNOW what our origins truly were; we have to make a best guess based on available input. And most of us have a belief as to what we think is most likely. So here's some examples of how different beliefs as to our origins affect questions 2, 3 and 4:

Example 1 - if someone believes that the Bible is true, as thousands of intelligent people have, then it would be perfectly logical for them to believe that these are the answers to those questions:
1. I was created by God;
2. I will spend my lifetime on earth, then eternity in either heaven or hell, based upon my own personal choices here on earth;
3. To love and enjoy God and others;
4. In accordance with what our loving, all-knowing designer tells us, for our absolute best and highest happiness.

Example 2 - if someone goes to a biology class and hears (wrongly) that evolution is a fact, and they believed that wild idea (sorry, couldn't resist! ) - um, and they believed it, as thousands of intelligent people have, then it would be perfectly logical for them to believe that these are the answers:
1. No one created me; I'm here as a result of chance (i.e., a series of beneficial mutations) and survival of the fittest;
2. I'll spend my lifetime on earth; if I'm lucky I'll live long and prosper, if I'm not I'll live short and be miserable (or worse, live long and be miserable), then when I die I'll cease to exist, so my choices here do not have any eternal consequence to me;
3. For no particular purpose, because of the above 2 answers;
4. However I think best. If I want to do what society currently calls "good" then I shouldn't get in trouble; if I want to do what society currently calls "bad" then I might get into trouble; and things happen by chance. I happen to usually like doing what society currently calls good, so I'll do it except when I don't feel like doing it.

i.e. ~ two individuals can be nearly identical on 4. and have radically different ideas about 1., 2., and 3.

absolutely, yet I think I can show some differences, and frankly I think the similarities are also worth analyzing. But let's go over the other stuff first to get some groundwork down.

I'll put two more possible scenarios down in the next post because this one is getting too long!