|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
01-30-2006, 03:17 PM | #1 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
|
Why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell?
Why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell?
I don't think that was discussed before... But really: Why? The reasons Gandalf and Elrond gave seem strange to me - they waited for the return of the scouts they sent. But the time they lost in Rivendell (from the end of October till the end of December- TWO MONTHS!!) allowed their enemies to consolidate. The nazgul had time to return to Mordor. Orcs came to Moria from the South, possibly from Mordor. Saruman had time to pick the fellowship's trail. And the winter had come, covering the Redhorn pass with snow. Wasn't it a bad mistake to stay that long? |
01-30-2006, 04:33 PM | #2 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Well as stated to make sure that all the Nazgûl had been partially destroyed and forced back to Mordor, and that would have taken a long time for the sons of Elrond went to Rhûn IIRC.
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
01-30-2006, 04:50 PM | #3 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
|
Quote:
And the nazgul horses (8 of the 9 ) were found dead not that far downstream. That meant that the nazgul had to walk to Mordor. And the fellowship, instead of setting out immediately, gave them the necessary time to get to Mordor with the news and to sent orcs to Moria and to Path Galen! Not to mention that SOMEONE flying obverhead - wasn't it a nazgul on a Fell beast? spotted them before the Redhorn pass and perhaps "organized' the storm! |
|
01-30-2006, 04:57 PM | #4 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Yes, I've just checked, they did not go to Rhûn. Yet some did go to Mirkwood, which would have taken some time.
Quote:
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
|
01-30-2006, 05:12 PM | #5 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
|
Oh, yes,, and by the end of December it was certain: the nazgul were safely in Mordor and horsed (and even "fellbeasted" ).
|
01-30-2006, 07:10 PM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Because the food, drink, and entertainment was top-notch?
Actually, all of the above is true but the actual answer has already been quoted and can be summed up as, "Haste makes waste." |
01-30-2006, 08:00 PM | #7 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
CrazySquirrel
Quote:
An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent. "The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South") And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth. Last edited by Olmer : 01-31-2006 at 01:52 AM. |
|
01-31-2006, 04:39 PM | #8 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
As for waiting for the scouts, rather than send the company out and let the scouts meet them: that's not a good idea. Let's say the company sets out and crosses the same pass that Bilbo and company did, and they find out the pass is held against them, then they have to go back and find another pass, and in the meantime the scouts who went that direction miss them....then they have no news, no one knows where they went, and there is no one looking for them to help along the way. Poor plan. |
|
02-01-2006, 10:29 PM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Quote:
Perhaps among the reasons Elrond felt the need to consult with Galadrial was his understanding that if the quest was successful, the destruction of the One Ring would mean the destruction also of Lothlorien when, as a result, the Three Rings lost their powers to preserve against decay. That being the case, he may have felt obligated, even if as a formality, to obtain Galadrial's consent to the mission. |
|
02-02-2006, 04:51 PM | #10 | |||||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
|
Quote:
Firstly Haldir said the orcs came from the South: that means, either from Mordor, or Isengard, or even from Dol Guldur, if they crossed the River at the field of Celebrant. OK? Or you think they were from Minas Tirith? Secondly, they were either Sauron's or Saruman's. Gandalf described the ones near the Chamber of Mazarbul as "black uruks of Mordor" Quote:
So my conclusion: they were from Mordor. Olmer, if you state they were from Isengard, could you provide a quote, please? Now did the new troop change the balance of forces in Moria? And were they sent there in relation with the Fellowship? Quote:
So between the summer and the winter 3018, the Moria garrison was noticeably reinforced. It might be either connected with Gollum, or with the news of the Ring Quest. Considering the fact that the attacking orc in the Mazarbul fight went directly and unerringly for Frodo, I believe the latter. And then: Elladan and Elrohir were in Lorien, in late October-November 3018. Why didn't they bring back the news of the great troop of orcs coming to Moria? Because they didn't. Gandalf has no idea of the situation in Moria: Quote:
Quote:
Apart from that, recall that the Witch-King had previously laid siege to Rivendell (1409) and, although he had all the army of Angmar with him, still he failed to take it. You think by 3018 he had developed a severe nazgul amnesia? Could he hope to assail Rivendell with a troop of vagabonds collected in Ettenmoors?, Here is my "modicum of silliness" Last edited by CrazySquirrel : 02-02-2006 at 05:02 PM. |
|||||
02-02-2006, 04:53 PM | #11 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
|
Sorry, this post is meant to overcome the new page bug
|
01-30-2006, 09:02 PM | #12 | |
Dreamweaver
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go...
Posts: 3,560
|
Quote:
__________________
Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... |
|
01-30-2006, 10:35 PM | #13 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
|
I agree that the Fellowship stayed too long in Rivendell, but that does not seem peculiar to Rivendell; they also spent one month in Lorien.
(And let's not foget Frodo reclutance in leaving Hobbinton) |
01-30-2006, 11:09 PM | #14 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Without some prophecy or precognition of when was the right time to get the ring to MT Doom, of which we have no indicia, the two month delay in Rivendell is inexplicable from a strategic or tactical standpoint. They should have set out beh9nd the scouts a soon as frodo was travelable. The scout if they run into any hazzard, should fall back on their out from Rivendell and would thus meet and warn the fellowship. Olmer's theory above is the only one that adds even small partial sense to the delay. he has now got me 10% suspecious of an Elvish plot.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
01-31-2006, 12:27 AM | #15 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
|
I agree with Olmer. The quest had to be OK'd by Galadriel before they set out.
It looks like the Ring came as a complete surprise to Erlond. Perhaps he first heard of the Ring being found from Gandalf, some days before Frodo was brought to Rivendell. The "old manipulator' never told about it to his colleagues (the other bearers of the Three) before! I imagine what Elrond said to Gandalf when he told him the news! And then counsil went after counsil, and "the boys", Elladan and Elrohir, were sent to their granny to ask her opinion - perhaps even some days before Frodo appeared in Rivendell. And Galadriel said "bring it to me!' and started musing what would she do if she had the One... That would explain the second (one month) delay, in Lorien. She just couldn't bring herself to let the Ring out of her claws. And don't you think they might have been looking for Gollum? Gandalf knew they needed him to complete the quest. |
01-31-2006, 06:26 AM | #16 |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ithilien
Posts: 852
|
do you know, it actually seems quite plausible... I mean, the twin sons had "an errand that they would speak of to no one but their father", and that sounds like an elaborate family conspiracy, doesn't it?
btw, an odd thing I just remembered about the council... how come no one offered to be the Ring-bearer, and there was such a frightful long silence before Frodo offered? Surely the Ring would be exercising a lot of charm around itself... how come no one asked to carry the Ring? it just puzzles me...
__________________
"I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world that truly makes living worthwhile?" Death thought about it. "Cats," he said eventually. "Cats are nice." -Terry Pratchett, Sourcery Join the Harry Potter discussion, click here |
01-31-2006, 07:07 PM | #17 | ||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
FB Last edited by Forkbeard : 03-05-2006 at 06:35 PM. Reason: clarity |
||||
02-08-2006, 11:19 AM | #18 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
skipping through this-if it was said already I apologise.
why did they stay so long?
..."such was the virtue of the land of Rivendell that soon all fear and anxiety was lifted from their minds. The future, good or ill, was not forgotten, but ceased to have any power over the present. ......taking pleasure with every meal and in every word and song.....so the days slipped away....... All that has been said about what others were doing is fine but I think the above captures the reason for The Fellowship staying so long.
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
04-02-2006, 08:11 PM | #19 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
I don't know why Gandalf wasn't eager to go. Wasn't he Sauron's enemy in Middle-earth? What better way to foil Sauron than to help destroy the One Ring?
However, recall the scene on Caradrhas where he lights a fire for the freezing Fellowship ( ) with magic and says unhappily, "If that isn't a better way to say 'Gandalf was here' than I don't know what is." (Or something.) I think Gandalf was reluctant to go because his presence, if discovered, would tip off Sauron and/or agents of Mordor that this activity, whatever it was, was worth keeping an Eye on. () That was the last thing that the Fellowship would need! Quote:
However, Elrond should have known better. He had the big picture and knew of the urgency of the quest. Frodo in Hobbiton didn't really know if drastically and almost irrevercably leaving his home was the right course of action.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
Long Lost Leaves | Earniel | RPG Forum | 1007 | 05-29-2008 02:37 PM |
Key to the Sky {A bit of a long post to start off with, but required info is in it} | Narinya_Cocachitawa | RPG Forum | 188 | 04-03-2005 04:46 PM |
Alternate routes of Fellowship from Rivendell to Mordor | Tuor of Gondolin | Lord of the Rings Books | 9 | 10-09-2003 01:34 PM |