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02-06-2007, 07:15 PM | #1 | |
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Global Warming Debate
So the general consensus is that it IS happenening, and here at least, the debate is whether it is man-made.
My personal opinion is that when the earth warmed in previous times, it was not because of the SUVs. So I guess I'm among the doubters that it is man-made at least. Also would like to post this link: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...n_id=&Issue_id and this one too: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...n_id=&Issue_id I also think there is room to doubt that it is happening at all, and whatever this weird weather is, it may not be weird, it may be that we only have Al Gore fresh in our minds. Quote:
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02-06-2007, 07:26 PM | #2 | ||
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There is no debate Hector, humans have definitely contributed to global warming.
Even the UN agrees on this! There is no room for doubt about the existence of global warming either. Sorry bud, but it really is happing. It's quite a disaster and I wish it wasn't happening, but it really is. About the first link: those guys sound like a bunch of rent-a-scientists to me. About the second link: Bill Nye the science guy and a weather channel host are probably not the most qualified individuals to debate global warming. Personally I'd rather see publishing scientists who are up to date on the issue debating. Here's a good link.
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02-06-2007, 11:10 PM | #3 | |||||
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There is plenty of room for doubt, and if you ask me, saying that there isn't is comparable to Nazism, IMO "NO! There is no room for debate! The World IS flat!!!" Quote:
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And of course he is now cursed by the same organization he headed. I just want you to know that the full consensus is not only on one side of the scientists, while the rest of them are just whackos. Heck, Michael Crichton thinks its a huge scam. Amateur scientist there, though he did go to medical school, but the point it is that you can hardly pin HIM down as an "ignorant fundamentalist".
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02-06-2007, 11:14 PM | #4 |
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I honestly don't think humans, with the very small amount of space [comparitively] we inhabit on earth, have the capacity to generate enough of a difference to our planet's weather.
Sure, in smog filled Chicago man-made global warming seems a reality, but when you're out in some super-high African mountain, I think you'd start to realize that we sure think we're big stuff when we aren't. That is not to excuse smog pollution, I'm just as much for reducing polluting emissions as anyone else.
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02-06-2007, 11:27 PM | #5 |
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There is no debate Hector. (((((((echo)))))))))
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02-07-2007, 02:20 AM | #6 | ||||||||||||
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I didn't say that to annoy you, it's just that responsible, reputable scientists have reached a general consensus that global warming is happening, and that humans have influenced it. So there isn't much to debate on whether or not global warming is happening. Quote:
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I generally try not to quash debate, or say that there is only one way to think. In this case though, humans are contributing to global warming, and global warming is happening. It is akin to insisting the world approximates a sphere. There is no debate there either. Quote:
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1. CO2 accumulates in the atmosphere, so it's the result of many years of pollution, not just the current year, that is sitting in the atmosphere. The property of CO2 that contributes to global warming, as you probably know, is that they do not allow heat from the Earth to radiate. Instead, the radiation is trapped inside the atmosphere, which is why it's called the "Greenhouse effect" - because this is the same effect of the glass in a greenhouse. 2. Humans have a truly amazing capacity to dump CO2 into the atmosphere. Coal-burning power plants are one of the worst offenders. I'm looking at you China, and Ontario, and hundreds of places all over the world. Quote:
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02-07-2007, 04:37 AM | #7 |
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In my view those arguments are completely idiotic. SUVs in the Middle Ages. Get a grip man.
You can't have 100% certaintly about something like this. The oil lobby has successfully exploited this to undermine any efforts to date to do anything about it. In the main, it's only people who don't understand science that are fooled by these tactics. I hope the Right is satisfied, greedily supping at the oil teat while the flood waters rise. The debate is over. The question now must be what can be done. |
02-07-2007, 06:04 AM | #8 | |||
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Aw give Hector a break man. His arguments aren't completely idiotic, many people have probably thought the same thing. If we happen to know something about global warming, we can share this knowledge without giving him too hard of a time. </Mom lecture>
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02-07-2007, 11:33 AM | #9 | |||||
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So what do you mean get a grip? Do you know what caused the warming then? Quote:
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So before you slapdash more assertions and certainties in the vein of THEDEBATEISOVER Gaffer, give me some REAL reasons why this time Global Warming is man-made. I don't know if you guys remember, but there was some fairly recent news that came out saying that cows, of all people, caused more global warming than suvs. It was then that I knew that global warming, at least man-made, was junk. I'll look up the link...
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02-07-2007, 11:46 AM | #10 | ||||||
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Temperatures during the 1930's were warmer than they have been in the past few years. Quote:
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02-07-2007, 12:38 PM | #11 |
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Hector....you amaze and depress me. Honestly....Since you've started posting a lot in general messages, (you never used to) I'm getting the impression you briefly pull your head out of the sand to read Mallard Fillmore, and then quickly stick it back in again. Sure, I'm a liberal atheist, and you're a whatever you are.....but seriously dude, Get a grip is right. I sincerely believe everything the Gaffer has posted......and imo, it is shameful to waste anymore time in denial about global warming (Hell. it was shameful 20 years ago! ). Enjoy the oily milk.
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02-07-2007, 04:17 PM | #12 | |||||||||||
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We don't want to look at isolated incidents (though they can indicate a general warming trend), we want to look at overall trends. Quote:
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Sure, he's more famous than you and I (even though you are the illustrious Entmoot Prez), but that doesn't mean he knows squat about global warming. Quote:
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If it did, it certainly build up its snow pack again since that time. Now, it's losing ice but the mean temperature of the Earth is actually rising. It's projected to rise between 2 and 6 degrees Celsius, which is a smoking big deal. Mount Kilimanjaro would only be able to restore its ice pack if the Earth experienced a general cooling trend. That certainly may happen, but meanwhile, humanity will be in a lot of trouble for reasons that I will outline later in this post. Quote:
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I'm sorry Tolkienfan, but the author of your textbook has absolutely no understanding of global warming whatsoever. This is unfortunate, but it's best that you know, because now you can look for a textbook to study from that isn't complete rubbish. Sorry to be so harsh, but... cooling gasses? I wish it was true. I really do. But if wishes were fishes then we could have a viable cod fishery in the Atlantic provinces again. Allow me to outline why this textbook is not providing accurate information: "When people burn fuels, carbon dioxide is not the only gas that is released. Many other gases are released as well." Yes, other gasses like chlorine, which are a catalyst (something that enables a previously impossible chemical reaction) in the reaction of ozone (O3) breaking down into oxygen (O2) and an oxygen cation (O-). The chlorine allows the ozone to break down: O3 -> O2 + O "Some of these gases tend to reflect light rather that absorb it." Dr. Wile: There's a magical gas in the atmosphere that stops global warming! It's shiny! It reflects light! Sensible people: But Dr. Wile, whether or not there are gasses that reflect light is totally irrelevant. The problem with global warming is that radiation (the transfer of heat) from the Earth is not able to leave the atmosphere because of CO2 and other "greenhouse gasses". Heat and light are two completely separate things. Dr. Wile: ...... shiny!! Please forgive the sarcasm. But nothing pisses me off more than abusing the trust of young people by teaching them absolute bollocks in high school. (I'm assuming you're in high school because this is a high school text book.) You have been lied to my friend, and I think that really stinks. It's totally unfair to you. I can't believe this guy has a PhD in nuclear chemistry. (He does, I looked it up.) You'd think a chemist would know the difference between heat and light, two completely different entities. Maybe he does, he just didn't feel you high school kids needed to know they are two separate things. Man, I hate that crap. "This actually reduces the amount of energy absorbed by the earth, causing a net cooling effect." First of all, if this were actually occuring, it could be observed. What has been observed is the exact opposite. Second of all, if the Earth were experiencing a net cooling effect, we'd be in as much trouble as we are right now with the net warming effect. Imagine what would happen if the average temperature of the Earth dropped by 2 to 6 degrees Celsius! Yeah. "It could be that any increase in the greenhouse effect due to human-produced carbon dioxide is offset by the cooling caused by the other chemicals associated with human activity." I can't believe this guy is actually arguing that random other chemicals that he doesn't name (at least not in that quote) are somehow off-setting the effects of global warming. That is totally irresponsible, not to mention incorrect. This phenomena has obviously not been observed at all. Also, claiming that people don't have a hand in global warming is a totally irresponsible attempt to say that then we shouldn't have to mend our polluting ways, since it isn't exacerbating global warming. Quote:
Lizra, I heart you.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 02-07-2007 at 04:42 PM. Reason: because I broke my quote tags and wanted to rewrite some parts |
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02-06-2007, 07:34 PM | #13 |
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I was thinking of making a thread about it, but I see you've beaten me too it.
While the earth has been through warmer and cooler periods in the past, I do think humans have a hand in this one. I'm not saying we're the only ones to blame, but if the warming had been a recurring thread, human behaviour certainly augmented it. The weather and climate are tricky and difficult subjects. Never mind Al Gore, sir David Attenborough has made some pretty damning documentaries about it too, and on conservation, he's one man who's opinion I trust. Not to mention that his documentary chilled my blood and not in a good way. That reminds me, I still have to watch the conclusion of the BBC's climate change computer project where they had dozens of computers running different climate modules.
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 02-06-2007 at 07:35 PM. Reason: spelling, my dear! |
03-10-2007, 06:20 PM | #14 |
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Great Global Warming Swindle - a documentary on global warming
This documentary on global warming is amazing. First aired on channel 4 in england it gives the history of the global warming debate and the actual reasons why the earth is warming up, ie the sun. Facts, fact, facts.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arming+Swindle
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
03-10-2007, 07:17 PM | #15 | ||
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Nope. Try lies, lies, lies.
It was basically a rehash of the same old discredited nonsense. Quote:
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03-16-2007, 01:43 PM | #16 |
Elf Lord
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El Tel, you already posted that. It's basically discredited nonsense and the guy who made it is a known fraudster.
Here's how I replied: http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...&postcount=158 |
05-08-2007, 07:27 AM | #17 |
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Call For Culling Of Human Population
This is what the whole global warming is really about:
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/may...population.htm C02 is not a bad gas. It has been shown, the more co2 the more plant life there would be which would result in more o2; more o2 means longer healthier life, for all wild life on the planet. A rise in co2 always follows a rise in temperatue, not the other way around.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
05-08-2007, 08:21 AM | #18 | |
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I have to take issue with the "co2 good gas" theory, though. As a mammal, rather than an Aspen, I'm in favor of oxygen over co2. As a member of the species that does the most playing around with my environment, I'm constrained to acknowledge that we've paved, logged and generally spoken for a lot of the area that might ordinarily have gone into restoring a balance between the two. This presents real challenges, particularly when we start discussing where we would like the oxygen to come from and it revives a lot of issues around colonialism. Many countries with rain forest, for example, want to know why they should remain without development opportunities so that people in the US can eat beef and run their air-conditioning all the time. I think that's a fair question. Henry George, an American economist who devoted most of his work to a theory of how land use policies could more equitably reflect social justice, talked about this as "the disappearance of the frontier". Everyone had big fun as long as the population could push out and start in on new land, but what happens when the land is all accounted for? How do you credit the work of people who didn't happen to grab some first? Have we, as a species currently confined to one planet, just about reached our "frontier"? My suspicion is, based on what I know of history, that poor and disadvantaged people will wind up bearing the brunt of either global warming OR efforts to slow it down. People do not have trouble getting the new Lexus through emissions testing, I notice. They even have special dispensations for rich people cars. So the solutions are still in flux. But what is the downside to carrying reusable grocery bags and using lower wattage bulbs? Even professional environmentalists get snarky about corporate "greenwashing" (I could link you, to hear them whine ) but surely discussion of our impact is good by any standard. It's the "examined life", kwim?
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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05-08-2007, 09:37 AM | #19 | |
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Basically, we are ultimately screwed no matter what we do, but some conservation now will extend the lifespan of our current race dramatically.
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05-19-2007, 05:28 PM | #20 |
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Global warming debunked
By ANDREW SWALLOW - The Timaru Herald | Saturday, 19 May 2007
Climate change will be considered a joke in five years time, meteorologist Augie Auer told the annual meeting of Mid Canterbury Federated Farmers in Ashburton this week. Man's contribution to the greenhouse gases was so small we couldn't change the climate if we tried, he maintained. "We're all going to survive this. It's all going to be a joke in five years," he said. A combination of misinterpreted and misguided science, media hype, and political spin had created the current hysteria and it was time to put a stop to it. "It is time to attack the myth of global warming," he said. Water vapour was responsible for 95 per cent of the greenhouse effect, an effect which was vital to keep the world warm, he explained. "If we didn't have the greenhouse effect the planet would be at minus 18 deg C but because we do have the greenhouse effect it is plus 15 deg C, all the time." The other greenhouse gases: carbon dioxide, methane, nitrogen dioxide, and various others including CFCs, contributed only five per cent of the effect, carbon dioxide being by far the greatest contributor at 3.6 per cent. However, carbon dioxide as a result of man's activities was only 3.2 per cent of that, hence only 0.12 per cent of the greenhouse gases in total. Human-related methane, nitrogen dioxide and CFCs etc made similarly minuscule contributions to the effect: 0.066, 0.047 and 0.046 per cent respectively. "That ought to be the end of the argument, there and then," he said. "We couldn't do it (change the climate) even if we wanted to because water vapour dominates." Yet the Greens continued to use phrases such as "The planet is groaning under the weight of CO2" and Government policies were about to hit industries such as farming, he warned. "The Greens are really going to go after you because you put out 49 per cent of the countries emissions. Does anybody ask 49 per cent of what? Does anybody know how small that number is? "It's become a witch-hunt; a Salem witch-hunt," he said. The original link is here
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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