|
10-24-2004, 07:40 PM | #1 |
The Infamous Tea Hobbit
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Riding my Attack Llama, CORY!
Posts: 1,162
|
Abortion.
I am totally fascinated at the tact everyone here has. I'm adoring the theology and beleif threads, I love this type of discussion. The entmoot rocks and therefore I felt safe to present this thread, I hope it hasn't been worn out.
How do you feel about abortion? Do you think it is killing babies? Do you feel that by not allowing pregnant women to abort their babies we are taking away a right? Do you believe that that baby has a life that can be allowed to go one or taken away? I am very interested in what you all think, so have at it. I'll state my beleifs on it later, I'd like to start by asking the above questions first.
__________________
If I can stop one heart from aching, I shall not live in vain. -Emily Dickinson But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd Never can quite understand The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the touch of the Master's hand. Though she be but little, she is fierce! -MSND |
10-24-2004, 09:23 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill
Posts: 2,389
|
I'm going to guess that since you used the word baby instead of fetus you're pro-life...but that's JUST a guess.
I'm against abortions "of convenience," but believe it should be a woman's choice if the child is the result of rape or incest, or if it's a life threatening pregnancy (more specifically, tubal pregnancy...can't think of the technical term right now).
__________________
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
10-24-2004, 09:31 PM | #3 |
The Infamous Tea Hobbit
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Riding my Attack Llama, CORY!
Posts: 1,162
|
*grins* Give that lady a prize!
Yeah, pro-life here. Was hoping to keep my beleifs in before I heard some others, but looks like I gave myself away I've got a whole lot more sympathy for women who have been raped and want to abort their baby than for, like you said, women who do it for the convenience. It seems to me, however, that if a woman who is only getting an abortion because it is convenient for her, that baby should not be aborted, right? Therefore, that baby will be born and grow up to be a person. But, what about the baby of the raped woman? Is it less of a baby because of what brought it about? I don't think we should cast away life because a terrible thing happened to make life begin.
__________________
If I can stop one heart from aching, I shall not live in vain. -Emily Dickinson But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd Never can quite understand The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the touch of the Master's hand. Though she be but little, she is fierce! -MSND Last edited by PippinTook : 10-24-2004 at 09:35 PM. |
10-24-2004, 10:39 PM | #4 | |
Fair Dinkum
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,319
|
Quote:
|
|
10-24-2004, 11:03 PM | #5 |
The Infamous Tea Hobbit
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Riding my Attack Llama, CORY!
Posts: 1,162
|
That's true, it would be torture to think about it, and you'd be reminded of it all the time. But I still think that's not a legitimate enough reason to abort the baby. Some prices have to be paid for life, I guess you could say. I in no way can come close to identifying with or justifying the pain that woman has to go through, but I still stand by my beleifs that life is life and we shouldn't mess with it.
__________________
If I can stop one heart from aching, I shall not live in vain. -Emily Dickinson But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd Never can quite understand The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the touch of the Master's hand. Though she be but little, she is fierce! -MSND |
10-24-2004, 11:21 PM | #6 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Do you support capital punishment? war?
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
10-25-2004, 01:54 AM | #7 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill
Posts: 2,389
|
Quote:
Hmm.
__________________
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
|
10-25-2004, 04:35 AM | #8 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Killing children
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Politics also you bring up. Wars vary from one to another. Sometimes when we go to war, it is good, and sometimes when we go to war, it is bad. Most of the time some good and bad is done. So referring to war in the same line of thinking as abortion is useless. They're utterly different subjects. I might support one war or go against another, but all children that are born are clearly innocent of all crimes, and killing them is ALWAYS wrong.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|||
10-25-2004, 04:39 AM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
A matter of convenience
Quote:
Most abortions are done because of convenience, in my opinion. Many teenagers can't handle the social reprecussions of being a single mother. Many teenagers won't face the massive problems of raising a child, when they themselves are so young and ill-prepared. These are all matters of convenience, the killing of one person because the someone else doesn't want to deal with it. The abortion of the child of a raped woman also I'd call a matter of convenience. I don't think that abortions should be allowed to take place in any of these cases. The only situation where I'm not completely certain is where it's actually causing a strong risk that the mother might die. Then it's an either/or, one life or another. The other situations are very hard, I realize. They are extremely harsh on the teenage girl who suddenly has to deal with a child they're utterly unprepared for. The child could very likely be growing up in poverty, with a mother who's tearing her hair out struggling to provide. The single mother's future also is in serious jeopardy. It would be incredibly hard for the mother to have a successful life, for most of these girls are forced to step out of highschool early. Without the education, good jobs are difficult to handle. So I understand these massive stresses. However, think about it. In a way, this is saying it should be legal for a poverty stricken person to shoot another person for his money. The money totting individual has done nothing against the beggar, but the beggar can end his situation by shooting the wealthy person and taking what he has. Women who get abortions are doing something very similar. They're killing an innocent child in order to keep their current situation (whether it's with money, school or society) stable. Murder shouldn't be legalized for the beggar, should it? Then why should murder be legalized for parents? It might be possible to set up agencies that help single parents. Perhaps having a better adoption system prepared also would be helpful. I think even homosexual adoption is preferable over abortion. I've been realizing more and more lately how abortion is actually a desperately important issue in the United States. If the fetuses are real children, as I believe they are, then we're butchering millions of human beings! It makes us seem a pagan nation in the extreme, not all that different from Adolf Hitler. He killed off the mentally impaired, the physically impaired, political dissidents and Jews. His "undesirables" that were "burdening the nation", he killed. Whether he was right or wrong about them being responsible for burdening the nation is not the point. He had no moral right to kill those people. It was extremely wicked. The evidence is that abortion is far from painless to the fetus also, I've heard. This is getting a little out of my line, for it gets into evidence and I haven't researched this stuff so well as I should. I talked with a very knowledgable person on the subject once, though. From him, I learned that the heartbeat is the first thing that's detected of the fetus. Directly after the heart is formed, the brain is. Therefore from the very first moments of the child's being detected, we have a living, thinking human being on our hands. When an abortion takes place, the pain of the child is shown to be worse then that which the mother would have in a natural birth. Unfortunately, this last paragraph I cannot effectively defend. I'm simply repeating what I heard from a knowledgable person who has studied this subject and taught about it to others. All right, I'm aware that these last two posts are not so respectful as perhaps they should be. They are hardline, and not politically correct. They are extreme, and I'm sorry if I've insulted people in these posts. If I have insulted you, reader, because of your views on the subject, that'll just have to be the way it is this time. I do not have respect for views that say killing children is all right. Only if you believe a fetus is very biologically different from a child can I respect a stance in favor of abortion; this is because of my moral principles. So anyhow, there we are. Now I'm really tired. Today I've been a little irritating to people around me at home, because of being tired from staying up late last night and being woken up early this morning. The Lord bless you all. ~Lief
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
10-25-2004, 02:13 PM | #10 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
One could certainly make the argument that a grown adult is more of a human (certainly in science's eyes and perhaps even in gods "eyes") then a 3 week old group of cells. Ill let you decide what you think about this. But that being said, Ive always felt its a double standard to be AGAINST abortion as a rule based on the fact that all human life is precious and one shouldnt kill and yet still be pro war and pro capital punishment etc. Theres a lot of gung ho republicans who feel that aborting a fetis is morally repugnant in the highest and yet feel we should rush off and invade any two bit country who looks sideways at us because we need to be "tough" and not "weak". Personally, I think there ARE reasons to kill sometimes so Im certainly not included in that small but noble group of people who are consistent across the board in their THOU SHALT NOT KILL approach to life. I respect people like that a great deal actually. What it usually comes down to is not pro abortion or anti abortion but WHEN you think that group have cells has become a viable human being that really shouldn’t be messed with. For many it’s the 2nd trimester for others its birth or conception (some even think using any sort of contraception to KEEP a female from becoming impregnated is the equivalent of murder). So when is it for you? Does anyone here actually believe abortions should never be allowed once conception has happened?
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
01-25-2007, 11:05 PM | #11 | |
Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Either walking across Rohan or riding through Fangorn forest
Posts: 2,000
|
Frankly, abortion is killing a human being, so unless it saves at least one life I'm against it.
That's my entire opinion. Not going to change. Simple, but the simple things are often the truest. That's it, and why one would kill another human being for fashion is almost beond me.
__________________
My status: Novice avatar maker. Elf lord Has no authority whatsoever Master of messing up
Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
|
01-26-2007, 12:34 AM | #12 |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: ghost
Posts: 1,792
|
In a lot of cases abortion can save lives.
A lot of girls that get pregnant are WAY TOO YOUNG to have children and should get and abortion before MANY LIVES are ruined. Their life, the child's life, and anyone else that they are dependent on. In some cases, abortion is an act of mercy so the child doesn't have to grow up in an unloving environment. I'm not going to argue about a fetus being alive, becaue you obviously believe it is and I respect that. EDIT: I forgot to add the part where some females have health issues and birthing a baby can kill them, not to mention the child. |
01-27-2007, 11:39 PM | #13 | ||
Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Either walking across Rohan or riding through Fangorn forest
Posts: 2,000
|
Quote:
What I ment was that when it saved lives it would be good... Otherwise it's just killing. Once a being of any sort starts forming there it is: life.
__________________
My status: Novice avatar maker. Elf lord Has no authority whatsoever Master of messing up
Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
||
01-28-2007, 05:43 AM | #14 |
The Rogue Elf
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,722
|
Butting in a little late, but just dropping off my opinion.
Interrupting current debate to drop off my opinion.
I support abortion, though from my personal view it's more like a necessary evil of sorts than anything else. In societies throughout history, women were and are constantly being judged by their ability to give birth over anything else they may be capable of. In the current equality debate that's been going on for so long, women will essentially never be men's equals because of their ability to bear life/pregnancy/etc. For societal reasons like this, I support it because it gives women a chance in today's society to be more than just mothers. Shallow reason? Perhaps. Also, a woman's body is her own right. I also support it because until that life inside the mother does not use the mother's body as a host necessary for survival, it serves a similar purpose that a parasite does. This is NOT TO SAY that fetuses are parasites, merely that they CANNOT survive without a HOST until birth. Until that life can support itself as a separate living being, the host should have rights over the life that depends, at the most basic level possible involving bodily functions, entirely and utterly on it for survival. Thirdly, overpopulation and the fact that there are so many unwanted and impoverished children in the world. When people sit down and complain about abortion without standing up to attempt to make the lives of those who are already suffering any better, it feels a lot like, "Okay, let's have more tortured people in the world. We already don't have enough of them that we can't take care of." Letting more unwanted children into the world feels worse than abortion to me, but I have different personal views than other people. I think all morals are relative to one's belief system, and mine is going to be vastly different from other people's systems. From a logical and detached view, there are plenty of reasons to support abortion. The only problem with most people is they can't be logical and detached from it to make a sensible deduction on the matter. Since I think everything is relative, though, really? It all depends on the person, and everyone's going to be different in their views. |
01-28-2007, 01:11 PM | #15 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Neither femininity nor masculinity is better than the other. Both are essential and complementary parts of the human race. I think men and women already have equality just about everywhere in modern society. Child bearing isn't any big change in that. Plus, as you mentioned, it's a kind of shallow reason for killing someone . Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
By this reasoning, Stalin had it all right. I bet he was being "logical and detached," when he decided to starve to death millions of the citizens of his country. The act greatly benefitted the economy of his country (though it went downhill anyway in the end, because of the nuclear arms race). Indeed, I very much wish that Stalin had been less detached from what he was doing, when deciding whether or not to kill humans. Quote:
So Hitler and Stalin were just fine. They were acting in perfectly valid ways, according to their belief systems, so they were fine and we should stop harping on them for their murdering tens of millions of people. You see, this is the essential problem with religious liberalism. If ethics depend solely on people's individual views of reality, and they can validly make them what they want for themselves, then anything goes. Nothing is good and nothing is evil.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-28-2007 at 01:14 PM. |
||||||
06-18-2008, 06:14 PM | #16 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
|
Locking this thread and creating a new one.
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Religion and Individualism | Beren3000 | General Messages | 311 | 04-17-2012 10:07 PM |
Abortion and Handguns | Aeryn | General Messages | 256 | 01-31-2003 01:39 AM |
Abortion | Gwaimir Windgem | General Messages | 9 | 01-28-2003 11:05 PM |
Let Gandalf smite the Abortion thread! | Gilthalion | General Messages | 7 | 08-27-2000 02:52 PM |
Abortion | dmaul97 | Entmoot Archive | 83 | 08-27-2000 01:25 PM |