|
03-15-2005, 07:31 PM | #1 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Homosexual marriage
IMO, this is a very important and timely topic to discuss. In the US, it's certainly a hot topic right now! I'd love to hold a good discussion on this issue, and it's been discussed on the "Gays, Lesbians and Bisexuals" thread, but some people have complained that it's taken over that thread. It's also been discussed on the "marriage" thread, but katya (the thread starter) didn't want it discussed. SO - to honor those feelings, here's a thread that is specifically to discuss the subject of homosexual marriage and related side-issues
This is one of those topics where people can get emotional, so as thread-starter I request that people be considerate of others. PLEASE feel free to vigorously point out perceived errors in a person's opinion, logic, conclusion, deduction, data, etc - but do NOT attack the person! And please do NOT speak for other people - let them speak for themselves. Please do NOT assume a person holds an opinion until they say they do - go ahead and ask them if you're not sure. Let's not stereotype! Let's not hold arguments with imaginary people. I think it's very valuable to discuss issues with people that hold opposing opinions. Let's go for it! People involved in the discussion - please copy over some posts from the other threads to start us off.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-15-2005, 10:01 PM | #2 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Some good starting posts would be IRex's recent post explaining his views, and Wizard from Milan's article about the judge in California.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-15-2005, 10:54 PM | #3 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
|
Ok, here it goes again
Quote:
I am actually not sure that all this compartimentalization of threads improves clarity. Separately, "Homosexual marriage" is a misnomer because there is no such a thing as a new type of marriage that is of the homosexual type. I think that the thread should be called "Marriage of same-sex couples". For short "same-sex marriage". I may well have been liable of having called it "gay marriage" before, but it should be clear that it is a marriage exacly like the one among different-sex couples, not a new type of marriage |
|
03-16-2005, 08:23 AM | #4 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Are we talking civil unions or traditional marriage in church? Or both?
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
03-16-2005, 10:06 AM | #5 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
I think all types of marriage that gay people would like to be a part of can be discussed here. So, civil and religiously blessed.
One point of confusion for marriages in general, is Christian priests (I'm pretty sure all, or at least most) are also allowed to give marriage licences ie. preform civil unions. When you're married in a Christian ceremony, the civil union aspect is incorporated into the ceremony. If you were blessed without the civil union, you wouldn't be considered married in the eyes of the law. Any further points on that we should discuss in Katya's marriage thread, but I wanted to clear that up here because any discussion of marriage can be confusing. You can say marriage to mean civil unioned or married to mean blessed in your church, or both at the same time. I don't think the term "gay marriage" or "homosexual marriage" is misleading here, because it means gay people getting married. I don't think it suggests a new sort of marriage. Onwards, I think people pretty much know what I think on the issue... for clever, well-written, and intelligent posts, read someone else's! Just kidding! Check out my posts in the GLB thread. I think that including gay people in the institution of marriage (civil unions) would not only be good for marriage, but for society as a whole. I don't think the government should be party to discrimination against gays. However, I also don't believe churches should be forced to preform ceremonies they don't believe, but I don't think anybody is asking for that here. Unlike the government, churches can choose which couples they believe are fit for marriage no matter what their sexual orientation is. A church would deny marriage to a straight couple they didn't feel was ready for this commitment, but the government will allow any couple to marry. It's not the business of the government to police people's sex lives, but it is there job to uphold people's rights. This means they will and should protect the rights of minors, (ie. not allowing underaged people to get married). Therefore I see no reason why the government should not allow gay people to get married, and neither does the Canadian government. I think this is an important step in overcoming discrimination against gay people.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-16-2005, 04:07 PM | #6 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-16-2005, 06:07 PM | #7 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
What is traditional marriage if not those two defenitions?
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
03-16-2005, 04:13 PM | #8 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|||
03-16-2005, 04:23 PM | #9 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Does this judge somehow think that the millions of Californians who voted to keep marriage between an adult consenting man and an adult consenting woman voted to do so merely because it's "traditional" and it's always been "done so before"?! This reminds me of the claim from a few Democrats that people that voted for Bush were "stupid". I believe that if you think you're right, then you should try to persuade people. Give people the dignity of assuming they think about things, and realize that if they disagree, it doesn't have to be because they're "stupid"; perhaps YOU'RE wrong, or perhaps you just have different worldviews. Why is this man the sole arbiter of what is "rational"? (in another quote he said something like he couldn't find a rational reason to deny same-sex marriages.) Bring it before the good people of California for a fair vote! Oh wait, we already did that - and the good people of California voted to keep marriage between a man and a woman. I voted this way, and I certainly didn't feel constrained at ALL to vote this way because it was "traditional" or it's always been "done so before"! Sheesh! The people that fought and died to establish the USA did so to get out from under the tyranny of the few. Judges like this are what people fought and died to get away FROM!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-16-2005, 04:45 PM | #10 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
ok so this is just a subscription post for me, but i do want to comment on one thing: tyranny????
|
03-16-2005, 04:47 PM | #11 |
Elven Maiden
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,309
|
Thank you, R*an! Maybe my thread that I don't care about any more will be free now!
My consience (spelling?) tells me I must say something on topic, so... I think that people spend too much time worrying about things, and I think that there's no problem with gay marriage. Well, it could cause problems, but so could a lot of things that no one has any right making illegal. And, this way, I can marry my imaginary female friend and we can share benefits and live more cheaply than if we were alone. And then we can XXX and XXX every night- just kidding! I'm only in it for the money, haha! |
11-13-2006, 01:04 PM | #12 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Elton John's suggestion
So do we all know about Elton John's "aha!" solution to ending violence? Yeah, ban organized religion. Sorry Mr. John, but that's already been tried. What he really meant, of course, was Ban Chrisitianity...since one of his reasons was that "religion (aka that evil religion christianity) encourages hatred against gays."
And we all know that christianity is the most anti-gay of all religions, and that its constituents are the most wild-eyed evil people who ever walked the face of the earth. Oh well, any stick is good enough to beat Christianity with, eh?
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 11-13-2006 at 01:39 PM. |
11-13-2006, 02:40 PM | #13 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Yeah it is a silly suggestion to ban organized religion even if christianty and Islam DO encourage hatred against gays.
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
11-13-2006, 02:57 PM | #14 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Did he specifically say to ban christianity? Because you know, organised religions are bit bigger than just that.
It's an impossible solution but still, if we hadn't have religion, I can't help thinking we'd have a lot less of the current conflicts. But of course, knowing us, we'd find some other characteristic to pick fights over...
__________________
We are not things. |
11-13-2006, 03:31 PM | #15 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Quote:
Thanks Rex, for realizing it's a useless suggestion
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
|
11-13-2006, 03:53 PM | #16 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Keeping religion to yourself ain't such a bad idea, though I'd never ban it.
It's like sex. As long as it's kept in the bedroom, people can do as they choose.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
11-13-2006, 04:26 PM | #17 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
The term organized religion does not solely contain christianity, that's what I'm saying. Not every 'stick' thrown at 'organized religion' hits christianity on the head. I'm sure all the other organized religions want their share of stick beatings too.
__________________
We are not things. |
|
11-13-2006, 04:49 PM | #18 | |
The Lovely Hobbit-Lass
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bounded in a nut-shell
Posts: 1,593
|
Quote:
__________________
It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year! |
|
11-13-2006, 05:18 PM | #19 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Great post, Rosie
...People talk about what the world would be like "if christians had the power!?". I can understand how a lot of Muslims must feel, going through this time, having to be associated with terrorists. Rosie O'Donnel apperantly thinks "extreme" christianity is "just as dangerous" as "extreme Islam". Heck, some weirdo author thinks christians are so bad, she wrote a novel (The Handmaid's Tale) about how it would be for women if christianity took over. The fact is that christianity is the thing that liberated women. ...well, futile to talk about it taking over, because it already did takeover, and it produced this country of America.
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
11-13-2006, 05:36 PM | #20 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Homosexual marriage II | klatukatt | General Messages | 736 | 05-15-2013 01:15 PM |
marriage | katya | General Messages | 384 | 01-21-2012 12:13 AM |
Gays, lesbians, bisexuals | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 988 | 02-06-2006 01:33 PM |
Ave Papa - we have a new Pope | MrBishop | General Messages | 133 | 09-26-2005 10:19 AM |
Women, last names and marriage... | afro-elf | General Messages | 55 | 01-09-2003 01:37 AM |