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04-29-2006, 02:30 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Why didn't Sauron use the Numenorean army?
Towards the end of the Second Age, the Numenoreans had become a very formidable military force. When Ar Pharazon confronted Sauron, Sauron’s own servants deserted him and he was taken as a prisoner to Numenor. After a few years Sauron gained control of Pharazon and through him the Numenorean military. My question is: Why didn’t Sauron use this army against his enemies in Middle Earth, primarily the Elves and Faithful Numenoreans? The Numenoreans in Ar Pharazon’s time surely could have destroyed or enslaved them. Instead, Sauron willingly destroyed his new forces by sending them against the Valar. He knew quite well that this would be their end. Why would he do this?
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04-29-2006, 07:05 PM | #2 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Interesting topic, CAB. I don't think it has ever been discussed before.
IMO, Ar-Pharazon, whatever strong Sauron's influence might have been, never became his slave. The King did what HE wanted to do - and he wanted immortality and in that he was of like mind with most of the populatiion. There was nothing for him to gain, if he had attacked Gil-Galad. As for the Faithful, they were keeping their heads low, both in Nimenor and in ME. Never was there an open rebellion, hence there was really no need for military action against the Faithful. Gradually they would have been exterminated one by one. Now, by the time of the Downfall, Ar-Pharazon was already 200 years old. His predecessor, Tar-Palantir the Faithful, lived only to 220 years, while his own father, Gimilkhâd, died at 200! The King had NO time to waste hunting elves n ME. He had to act before the "Gift" of Eru reached him. |
04-29-2006, 08:26 PM | #3 | |
Elven Warrior
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04-29-2006, 09:48 PM | #4 | |||
Elven Warrior
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04-30-2006, 05:38 AM | #5 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I think the main reason is that Sauron wanted Númenor utterly destroyed. He didn't at the moment care much about the Elves and other people in Middle-earth. He could deal with them later. He didn't want to control Númenor and its people, he wanted to see them crippled, humbled and cast down. I guess his pride was majorly stung when Ar-Pharazon outdid him in power.
I think he saw the corruption of the Númenoreans he wrought, the fact that he was able to send Ar-Pharazon to Valinor to defy the Valar from whom the Númenoreans had even received their own land, as a enormous victory. I doubt he had forseen the magnitude and swiftness of Eru's punishment or he wouldn't have stayed in Númenor. Unless Ar-Pharazon didn't completely trust him after all and wanted to make sure Sauron was still where he left the maia when he returned from his campaign against Valinor. But it still stands that Sauron managed to destroy a very prosperous and advanced civilisation and reduced a mighty people to exiles and cast-aways, much diminished in power, knowledge and technology. While Gondor and Arnor still were great kingdoms, they were but a small remnant of what once was, and they would never again equal the likes of Númenor. With the destruction of Númenor Sauron successfully made sure the might of Númenor could never stand again in the way of his dominion.
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04-30-2006, 06:15 AM | #6 | |
Elven Warrior
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04-30-2006, 02:07 PM | #7 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-30-2006, 05:48 PM | #8 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I believe people tend to overestimate Sauron's influence on Ar-Pharazon. The only things Sauron achieved was making the Numenoreans worship Melkor and attack Valinor - both things for one goal - gaining immortality. That was the only thing they really wanted, not some war with the ME Elves. Sauron couldn't really use the King and his army as he wished: that's why he destroyed them.
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And I think Telcontar_Dunedain is right. The next ruler would be MIRIEL - not as a widow of Ar-Pharazon, but as a daughter of Tar-Palantir. And after her the Sceptre would have passed to the next in line - this person should have been appointed heir long ago and probably left behind when the Fleet sailed - just in case. There was later the custom in Gondor to leave a Heir to the crown behind (Like Ondoher and Faramir his son-see UT) Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 04-30-2006 at 05:51 PM. |
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04-30-2006, 05:59 PM | #9 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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07-29-2006, 08:14 AM | #10 | |
Hobbit
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Hatred and Revenge
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Please read Post #41 |
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07-29-2006, 05:35 PM | #11 | |||||
Salt Miner
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Tolkien states Sauron’s motives explicitly in Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”, “Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion”:
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It was not “mere hatred” that drove Sauron. In Morgoth’s Ring, Tolkien states that Morgoth was a “nihilist”: that is, he wanted the destruction of all Arda: Quote:
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08-03-2006, 01:59 AM | #12 |
Hobbit
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Alcuin,
Was not Sauron also humiliated by Luthien and Huan? You mean to say the destruction of Arda wouldn't ultimately destroy it's inhabitants? You mean to say destruction is not driven by Hatred? Please read the whole first paragraph of Post 41 again, not just one word. Try to understand the whole context. I came up with my response all on my own. From my own reading and comprehension. Not bad for someone who's never read Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed". |
08-03-2006, 03:47 AM | #13 | ||||||
Salt Miner
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Sauron was not out to destroy the world the way Morgoth was. At one point, Tolkien even described Sauron as a “reformer”: in Letter 153 of The Letters of JRR Tolkien, he wrote, Quote:
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We come to these forums to learn. Okay, and to show off a little. But if it’s a choice between learning and showing off, choose the learning every time. Showing off can get you embarrassed. (Which is better than what happens in the real world: “Hey, ya’ll! Watch this!” or “Look, Ma! No hands!”) You now know about Morgoth’s Ring. If you’re interested in Tolkien, really interested, go take a look at it. Get a copy from the library, read it, or at least those sections that appeal to you, and tell us what you think about it. You might enjoy reading the part about what motivated Morgoth and Sauron: Morgoth was functional, but ultimately he was way beyond homicidal and possibly insane: his purpose was to destroy whatever anyone and everyone else made. There really are people like this in the real world: you may not have met one yet, or realized that you’ve met one, but you will. Sauron wanted to be in charge. He was ok with Arda: he wanted to rule it: he wanted it for his own. There are people like that, too, and you probably have met and recognized them. (Most people have had their first experience with a selfish “Sauron” by age 5.) That’s my response. You can take it or leave it; but before you fire off an angry answer, just think about it for a couple of hours. And find yourself a copy of Morgoth’s Ring. You might like it. |
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08-03-2006, 04:01 PM | #14 | |
Elven Warrior
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Alcuin made some excellent points, as usual. I would only like to point out that Myths Transformed is one of the most controversial Tolkien texts in existence. Chris himself has called it "a fearful weapon against his own creation", due to its drastic revision of the entire creation. If there was a quote in Silmarillion which would challenge the MT on the case in question, I would say it is this one, which pretty much equates the path of Sauron with the one of Melkor:
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08-03-2006, 04:06 PM | #15 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Alcuin,
I am not angry, and I hope my initial response was not interpreted that way. Maybe a little sarcastic, but in no way angry. I did discover a new thing which you mentioned twice. That not all Numenoreans were descended from Elros. Quite interestingly enough I haven't read the Silmarillion in a few years. I understand your point about Morgoth's intentions vs. Sauron's and I will not give in so easy to any thought. I know my web name is Ellf (which happen to be my initials), but I'm more of a Dwarf if you may (a little stiff necked). So I must say that I will look a little more into it, because I do believe and remember reading in the Sil. that Morgoth wanted the domination of Arda. Now, whether Tolkien wrote this and disagreed with his thoughts later (which I'm finding more and more often), I will find out. This is a thread based upon the Sil. is it not. Now, regarding ethnic cleansing, I do believe that Sauron had hatred in his heart to murder people and sacrafice them to Morgoth. Also if Tolkien claims Morgoth was a "nihilist" wouldn't his best disciple be one also? Well any how I will look into this a little further, because I do remember reading in the Sil. that Sauron was very similar to his Master. By the way, why didn't Morgoth destroy the Simarils? Why didn't he destroy Luthien when she was in his presence? Hmmmm? Sorry for the sarcasim. |
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