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07-13-2002, 02:46 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jul 2002
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travilling ove seas
My friend told me that whene a charicter travelled over the seas (i think thats how tolkien put it, maybe passed over the seas?)that they had died, but i don't know if thats true or not! what do you think?
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07-13-2002, 02:51 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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sorry! i don't know why this went into the movie place, it's suposed to be with the books, thats where i wanted it to go, and that is where i tried to make it go, i even tried posting it in that section! is it my computer, or what?
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Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES! |
07-13-2002, 03:03 PM | #3 |
Elven Warrior
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Going to the Undying Lands is like a healing for your heart. The people choose when they think they want to die. So they don't die right away when they cross the seas.
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07-13-2002, 07:23 PM | #4 |
Fowl Administrator
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Moving it to the right forum...
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07-13-2002, 09:10 PM | #5 |
Elf Lord
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thanks! now i fill better to know that everyone's not dead! that went over seas i mean!
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Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES! |
07-13-2002, 10:54 PM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
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What I thought was that they went to Valinor(where all the "gods" like Varda and Manwe live), and were immortal there? I like to think that they were immortal, but I have no proof to support my theory....
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07-13-2002, 10:55 PM | #7 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Well, it's called the Undying Lands, so of course that means deathless. Right? However, death did occur in Valinor with the demise of Mireal, and the murder of Finwe, and the Kinslaying. All this is from the Silmarillion, and if you haven't read that, then this info will be meaningless to you. But, if you are refering to the crossing of the sea at the end of LotRs, then to explain that, they went to Tol-Eresea in the "last riding of the keepers of the Rings" This was where Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli went. This does not insure their immortality, but gave them a chance to heal from their burdons that were imposed upon them when they bore the ring. Gimli was a special exception.
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07-13-2002, 11:05 PM | #8 |
Elven Warrior
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I've read ~ 1 half's worth. I can't plough straight through it quite yet . So, you can be killed, but you won't die of old age? It's hard to base this on the Sil, because only elves and the Valar lived there, and they don't die......
Oh boy....
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'Go away, and never come back!!' '......what?' 'But you're a part of this world! Aren't you?' Frodo lives! |
07-13-2002, 11:21 PM | #9 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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It's complicated. The Elves were immortal, the Valor were immortal. The Elves were never really meant to live in Valinor, but when the world became so unsafe, the Valar invited them to come there and live with them. Death for Elves was rare and exceptional, hence the death of Mireal. But yes, they could be slain, just as they could be slain in Middle-earth. When Frodo and the others set sail across sea at the end of LotRs, as I said, they went to Tol-Eressea, not Valinor per se. Tol-Eressea was an island that was a part of the Undying Lands, but not. Eventually, the Undying Land were removed from the circles of the world.
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07-14-2002, 01:17 AM | #10 |
Viggoholic
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I never understood what happened to Frodo until I read the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion is difficult to read and I found it tough at first, but now I think it is equal or even better than LOTR. I thought Frodo went to the undying lands and was healed and eventually died of old age, as did Sam, Bilbo and Gimli.
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07-14-2002, 01:33 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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so, they can only die of eather:
1. old age 2. if someone kills them or 3. if they chouse to die ??? i'm not understanding your answers! help!
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Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES! |
07-14-2002, 02:42 PM | #12 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Gimli, Bilbo and Frodo HAVE to die, it's the nature. Iluvatar did that.
the elves could die just if: 1. they want/choose to 2. someone kill them |
07-14-2002, 04:46 PM | #13 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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09-25-2002, 10:52 PM | #14 |
Co-President of Entmoot
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The Grey havens is not just an idea.
Also, the Grey havens has at least two locations. If you go there, you're not just aimlessly sailing over the sea. I think there's one in the south with Cirdan the Shipwright (the origional bearer of the elf-ring that Gandalf now has) and another in the North, or something like that.
The Grey Havens are West of Middle Earth. Middle Earth is only a small part of Ea. There are things West, East, North and South of it. In terms of death, other Entmooters explained that well, that Elves are immortal and do not die. They can be slain. However, the only Elves that are allowed to choose death are Half Elves. This is outlined in the Silmarillion, but basically, the only Half Elves are the descendants of Luthien Tinuviel (an Elf) and Beren One-Handed (a Man.) Elrond and Arwen (+ brothers) and other people I ignored were allowed to choose whether they'd me mortal or immortal. No other Elves are allowed to do this, as it was a special exception made my Manwe. |
09-26-2002, 02:05 AM | #15 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Re: The Grey havens is not just an idea.
Quote:
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09-26-2002, 06:54 AM | #16 |
Elven Warrior
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So Frodo and all the others did not actually go to VALINOR? Not the place where the Valar live?
Also, in Morgoth's Ring, I read that when Frodo and Co. left to...where ever they went, that they did for sure die, and that the reason for going there was to be completely healed of all bodily illness, and be completely happy (?) until they died. Yay! I think I actually got it straightened out in my mind!
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'Go away, and never come back!!' '......what?' 'But you're a part of this world! Aren't you?' Frodo lives! |
09-26-2002, 10:57 AM | #17 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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After conveying the Vanyar and the Noldor to Aman, Ulmo returned for the Teleri. During the course of this second voyage, Osse begged Ulmo not to take these Elves away from his home in the sea, and so Ulmo anchored the island in the Bay of Eldamar. The easternmost of the Undying Lands. Tol Eressea, especially its western shore was bathed in the light of the Two Trees, and here grew the first flowers outside Valinor. |
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09-26-2002, 07:30 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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Thank you SGH. I never read "convey" used in such a way, didn't know it could have that sense. Another wrinkle for the brain.
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09-26-2002, 07:43 PM | #19 |
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Why wouldn't Frodo go to Valinor? It's not as if the eldar weren't forgiven and allowed to go there eventually...
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09-26-2002, 10:09 PM | #20 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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