|
07-26-2005, 09:15 PM | #1 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Moria naming error?
I was reading thru some Tolkien websites and came across an intriguing question pointing out a possible slip on JRRT's part (it's so tempting to try and find them!) -
If the Elves of Hollin were friendly with Durin's folk in Khazad-dum, and the name Moria (black chasm/pit) wasn't given until many years later, why does it say "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" on the doors?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-26-2005, 10:49 PM | #2 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Left of Rock, Right of Hard Place
Posts: 986
|
Quote:
(I really do not have a better reason than that.)
__________________
Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
|
07-26-2005, 10:56 PM | #3 |
Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe
Posts: 5,408
|
Sounds good enough for me.
__________________
KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator
|
07-27-2005, 12:16 AM | #4 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Probably just a bit of liberality with the translation... those gathered knew the place as 'Moria', so Gandalf translated it as Moria??
(or do the letters on the picture spell out 'Moria' in Elvish... probably do, don't they?)
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
07-27-2005, 12:18 AM | #5 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
that's what I thought at first, but then remembered the letters on the picture spell Moria in Elvish! (I had translated JRRT's picture myself before and remembered)
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-27-2005, 01:26 AM | #6 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Does it say anywhere that the name Moria was given many years later than the death of Celebrimbor?
The Elves of Hollin were friends with the Dwarves, but that didn't stop them of making their own names of the mountains, and presumably not of Khazad-Dum either. Though the name was given without love, I don't think it was given with malice. To the Elves, the Dwarrowdelf was a Black Chasm.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
07-28-2005, 02:24 AM | #7 |
Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe
Posts: 5,408
|
I'd buy it right away! Then I don't have to buy individual books. Just print em out!
__________________
KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator
|
09-13-2005, 10:02 AM | #8 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: England
Posts: 28
|
how did you get it into a word document? or did you spend along time writing it out?
|
10-10-2008, 07:12 AM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
|
I think a possible approach might be: Frodo said he could not read the writing, but he remembered what Gandalf said (Moria), and Gandalf said Moria because that was the more familiar name.
This might serve as an explanation, as the name Moria need not be written on the actual door. |
10-10-2008, 10:52 AM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Y'all are making a common mistake. You're translating Moria using one of the more common Middle Earth languages. In fact, certain Elves spoke Hebrew where Moria means, "My teacher is Illuvatar [God]."
__________________
Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. |
10-10-2008, 11:17 AM | #11 |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it.
Posts: 1,052
|
__________________
Hers. |
10-10-2008, 12:55 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
__________________
Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. |
10-11-2008, 02:09 AM | #13 |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it.
Posts: 1,052
|
'Righty.
What can I say... Varna is damn smart. And Willow Oran, nice to see you again! Moothug!
__________________
Hers. |
10-10-2008, 01:04 PM | #14 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Imladris (and sometimes Norway)
Posts: 3,304
|
The illustration in the book could not be a photo of the door, as photography had not been invented. It may be Frodo's drawing, and as there was not time for him to do a sketch in such detail as to copy every sign written on the door, he must have made the drawing from memory after he came back.
He would then just have written the text as he "knew" it to be - not realising that he was drawing Gandalf's translation rather than the actual words on the door.
__________________
Signature picture art - Bard the Bowman - by vigshane Avatar art - Footsteps of Spring (a young Luthien) - by Henning Janssen |
10-10-2008, 04:08 PM | #15 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
That is a very clever point, Varna, I never thought about it. It certainly makes sense.
__________________
We are not things. |
10-10-2008, 05:56 PM | #16 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
|
Quote:
__________________
"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
|
10-11-2008, 01:44 AM | #17 |
Deus Ex Machina
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,951
|
He could also have copied the image from an older document in Imladris.
__________________
"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
10-11-2008, 03:36 AM | #18 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Interesting suggestion too. The original population of Imladris came straight out of Eregion. If there are any Elves able to reproduce the carvings on the door, then it would be these Elves. Frodo did spend some time in Rivendell before going back to the Shire, he would have had a good opportunity right there.
__________________
We are not things. |
10-11-2008, 06:56 AM | #19 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Imladris (and sometimes Norway)
Posts: 3,304
|
I expect that those Elves also would be drawing the picture from memory, but they at least would remember exactly what was the wording on the doors.
In which case, we're back to square one But thank you for your compliments on my smartness
__________________
Signature picture art - Bard the Bowman - by vigshane Avatar art - Footsteps of Spring (a young Luthien) - by Henning Janssen |
10-11-2008, 09:01 PM | #20 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
I strongly agree with the POV that the Hobbits are writing the history in LOTR with Tolkien doing the translating. It's why, in the movie section, I'm usually more open to the personality changes than most. The Hobbits worshipped, for example, Aragorn and Faramir. They had every incentive, in the Red Book, to present them as "larger than life." Well, so be it.
It is an interesting angle from which to consider the Moria name issue, though.
__________________
Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
How many times had Gandalf been to Moria? | Valandil | Middle Earth | 15 | 11-17-2006 09:15 AM |
Did Sauron imprison the Moria Balrog? | CAB | Lord of the Rings Books | 35 | 08-22-2006 02:38 AM |
Deciphering an error | Mercutio | Feedback and Tech Problems | 4 | 02-07-2005 02:45 PM |
Moria, Sauron, and the Balrog | Forkbeard | Lord of the Rings Books | 40 | 10-22-2004 02:57 PM |
Gandalf and Moria | Elvet | Middle Earth | 4 | 03-23-2002 04:10 PM |