Christ in Middle Earth

[Beren3000]

I'm sure you'll agree with me that there are Christ figures in Middle Earth.
I mean, you can find Christ-like qualities in these characters:

-Earendil
-Gandalf
-Aragorn
-Frodo

And maybe there are others... So my question is, how is this significant? Why did Tolkien choose to portray many Christ figures? Why didn't he just come up with a single Christ figure that would be central to the action instead?

[Wayfarer]

Because Middle-Earth is (in the mythology) the same as our earth. So while the great heroes of the past often show christ-like traits, Christ himself was going to arrive sometime in the fifth age or so.

Besides... the whole comparison is kind of silly.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

As you repetedly say!

I think if Tolkien had made one Christ like figure (this excludes the Valar and Eru) then ME would have been a spin off form of the Bible. If Aragorn or Frodo were perfect then everything would be a little predictable. Frodo would have taken The Ring straight to Mount Doom and destroyed it with out a second thought.
Aragorn would challenge Sauron and defeat him easily giving Frodo a resonably easier path to Mount Doom. He would then have broken the Black Gate and single handidly(sp.) killed all orcs and other evil creatures in Mordor.
You see what I mean?

[Pytt]

yes, good point TD. tolkien himself was very religious, and when he should create a mythology for England, he ceartainly would take in some elements from Christianity.
besides, in NArnia by C.S Lewis, the comparison to the bibel is even more obvious.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Besides... the whole comparison is kind of silly.

That's an opinion, not a fact

I see your point, TD. You're saying that Tolkien placed some aspects of Christ in each of these character so as not have a flat plot, right?

[Wayfarer]

The facts are silly.

The reason I say that, though, is that it strikes me as patently ridiculous to imagine JRRT sitting down and saying to himself "Hmm... how many Christ figures should I include in this story?". Isn't that picture just a teensy bit amusing?

I don't believe Tolkien was trying to represent Christ in any of those characters. They were simply good people, and because they were good people they had a number of things in common with Christ. It really doesn't have anything to do with portraying multiple Christ figures.

Aslan was meant to represent Christ. Frodo wasn't. I think there's a big difference between the two.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

That's an opinion, not a fact

I see your point, TD. You're saying that Tolkien placed some aspects of Christ in each of these character so as not have a flat plot, right?

I think that's part of it, but more particularly there can only be one Christ, and he isn't incarnate in LoTR yet. So like a good Catholic and a good medievalist, he did in Middle Earth what Christian commentators have been doing to the Old Testement (and by extension) and pagan literature since the beginning: looking at David, Abraham, Moses etc as prefiguring Christ; similarly there are medieval commentaries that take Aeneas as a prefiguring of Christ as well, for example. So in LoTR, a "mythology for England" that is "pre-Christian" and yet looks forward to the story of stories, the eucatastrophe of eucatastrophes!

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I'm sure you'll agree with me that there are Christ figures in Middle Earth.
I mean, you can find Christ-like qualities in these characters:

-Earendil
-Gandalf
-Aragorn
-Frodo

And maybe there are others... So my question is, how is this significant? Why did Tolkien choose to portray many Christ figures? Why didn't he just come up with a single Christ figure that would be central to the action instead?

Tolkien, a self-proclaimed Classicist, was espousing the virtues that he found of value in both his Catholic heritage and the classics of ancient mythology and literature. What people deem to be Christ-like in these characters goes back to ancient Hebraic, Greek, and Egyptian teachings (all of which were influential on Tolkien's creation).

The mythology of Middle-earth (which is NOT the "mythology for England" -- that was The Book of Lost Tales) encompasses many aspects of our historical world -- including its mythologies and religions. Hence, you have angels and demi-god-like heroes marching across the landscape in battles which shape the world. You have trips to the underworld (Luthien's prayer for Beren in Mandos, the beseechings of Finwe for Miriel's return) and resurrections (Beren and Luthien, Gandalf, Turin at the end of the First Age, Finrod and other Elves in Aman, etc.) and you have figurative passages through the underworld (Angband, Moria, the Paths of the Dead).

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Tolkien, a self-proclaimed Classicist, was espousing the virtues that he found of value in both his Catholic heritage and the classics of ancient mythology and literature. What people deem to be Christ-like in these characters goes back to ancient Hebraic, Greek, and Egyptian teachings (all of which were influential on Tolkien's creation).

The mythology of Middle-earth (which is NOT the "mythology for England" -- that was The Book of Lost Tales) encompasses many aspects of our historical world -- including its mythologies and religions. Hence, you have angels and demi-god-like heroes marching across the landscape in battles which shape the world. You have trips to the underworld (Luthien's prayer for Beren in Mandos, the beseechings of Finwe for Miriel's return) and resurrections (Beren and Luthien, Gandalf, Turin at the end of the First Age, Finrod and other Elves in Aman, etc.) and you have figurative passages through the underworld (Angband, Moria, the Paths of the Dead).

I agree with Michael. The mythology of ME is too broad to be specifically focused on purely "christian" themes. Tolkien took ideas from a whole range of histories, subjects etc that he would have absorbed throughout his learning period.

There are always going to be comparisons, some intentional, some not. It is a matter of individual tastes and proclivities that we get out of Tolkien what we want to. I personally don't dwell too much on the religious aspects, although I am very keen on understanding some of the philosophical themes.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Durin1

I agree with Michael. The mythology of ME is too broad to be specifically focused on purely "christian" themes. Tolkien took ideas from a whole range of histories, subjects etc that he would have absorbed throughout his learning period.

I can not but wholeheartedly disagree. If we follow this line of reasoning then we shouldn't ask about Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Norse influences on Tolkien or even about modern ones since the number of influences is broad--nothing could be put down to "norse" themes or a "homeric" influence.
We ask and examine these kinds of questions all the time, even MM has in his books and articles. So to focus on a Christian theme, and I think there can really be little question that Tolkien's faith influenced him, is in fact desireable.

There are always going to be comparisons, some intentional, some not. It is a matter of individual tastes and proclivities that we get out of Tolkien what we want to. I personally don't dwell too much on the religious aspects, although I am very keen on understanding some of the philosophical themes.

Sometimes that's true. Sometimes however there are things that are quite clearly not just "what I want to get out of it". The number of linguistic jokes for example that have been pointed out over the years are not things are just what people wanted to see (although there have been some things like the name Moria that people have wanted to see as from the Bible that Tolkien and others have shown not to be the case at all). But that's the advantage of a board like this and discussion is that we can float a theory and be corrected if it is simply what I want to see, or be told by others that there might be something to it.

FB