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10-17-2004, 02:38 AM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
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LoTR Discussion Project: Bk II Chap. 3: The Ring Goes South
This chapter is for me one of the most interesting of the book. It captures my attention in the same way that The Old Forest does in Book I, hints at so much more in the background that in the end is left untouched and unexplained. This is one of the characteristics that keeps me coming back to LoTR.
Chapter Summary The chapter opens later the same day of the Council. The hobbits are gathered together in Bilbo's room discussing what to do next. Gandalf stops by the window and joins in the talk. Gandalf reveals that messengers have been sent out to discover any news of the Enemy's movements, particularly any news of the Nine Ringwraiths and that when the time does come to depart, he will go with Frodo. The days slip by. The Council of Elrond was on Oct. 25. The days of December fly quickly by before the messengers begin to return. The lands seemed empty and all appears quiet. The only traces of the 9 that could be found were 8 dead horses and 1 torn black cloak. Elrond then gives tought to forming the Fellowship. He has chosen the number of the company to be nine, for secrecy and to match the 9 Riders. Frodo and Sam were of course chosen at the Council. Gandalf was to go. The remainder were to represent the Free Peoples of Middle Earth: Gimli son of Gloin for the Dwarves, Legolas of the Silvan Elves for the Elves, Aragorn son of Arathorn for Men, and Boromir, Denethor's son of Gondor. There is some debate about the remaing two spots. Merry and Pippin both insist on going; Elrond thinks it best that they not go. Gandalf suggests that trusting to love and friendship would be best; that not even sending Glorfindel would help achieve the aim any better. No command is laid on the Company; none is compelled to go further than they wish or fortune allows. And so the tale of the Nine Walkers is complete and preparations for departure are made. The Sword of Elendil is reforged, and on its blade are carved Aragorn's device, and many runes. Aragorn renamed the sword Anduril, Flame of the West. The hobbits talked and heard many stories such as the full tale of Berien and Luthien and the taking of the Great Jewel. Bilbo one morning takes Frodo aside and gives him Sting and his mithril coat of mail made by the Dwarves. Finally, on the evening of 25 December, the Company is to depart. Boromir sounds his horn, Bill the Pony is packed, and Sam complains of having no rope. Elrond lays a charge only on Frodo: not to cast away the Ring nor deliver it to any servent of the Enemy, nor let any handle it or see save members of the Company and only that at great need. He reiterates that the others are free companions who may tarry, or return, or go home, or turn aside as chance allows. (There is an exchange of proverbs between Elrond and Gimli--not central to the story, but always attracts my attention.) The Company leaves Rivendell and march by night for the next fourteen days without much incident. On Januray 8, the Company reaches Hollin, in the Second Age a part of Eregion, a land once lived in by the Elves. Frodo notes on more than one occasion the presence of a road. Here they plan to take an extra to rest. But Aragorn notes that everything is quiet. Later that day as the other rest, Aragorn and Sam stand watch. The observe a large flock of birds fly over Hollin, a large section of which breaks off and flies directly over them. Aragorn raises the alarm, the fire is put out, and the decision is made to move on that night, rather than rest for a day. That night, Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn sense something pass overhead. Frodo shivers and sees the stars momentarily go blank. Gandalf senses it pass over. At this point, Frodo hears part of a debate between Aragorn and Gandalf about their road, a debate apparently already well-hashed. Gandalf expresses concern that the Redhorn Gate, the pass over Caradhras in the Misty Mountains for which they are currently making, will be watched as well as concern about the weather. It is decided that as dangerous as it might be, it is the best road. As they read the bottom of the mountain, it begins to snow. They gather wood and climb upwards, the wind and snow coming down harder. Eventually they are completely stopped on the mountain by the wind and snow and attempt to take what shelter they can under a jutting rock face. There were sounds of shrill voices in the wind, and howls of laughter; stones began to fall from the mountain side. They remain standing there for the night as the snow piles deeper. They start a fire, and need Gandalf's magic to do so. They burn all their wood in the cold. In the morning, Boromir and Aragorn burrow a path through the snow back down; Legolas is able to walk on top of the piled snow and walks down the mountain. Boromir and Aragorn return and carry the hobbits down to where the snow is lessened. They regroup and descend the mountain, noticing that the birds are once again flying and apparently searching. They stumble "wearily down the slope. Caradhras had defeated them." Discussion Points 1) Why nine? What need to match the number of Ringwraiths? 2) Why does Bilbo want Frodo to keep his mail shirt a secret? 3) Who or What caused the snow storm? 4) Who or What was the shadow Frodo saw overhead? 5) Who sent the birds? 6) Why would Gloin, Gimli, Legolas, Boromir etc hang around for 2 months? 7) There are several points of foreshadowing in this chapter as well: how many can we list? 8) What does this chapter tell us about the key characters? Especially the less obvious ones such as Boromir or Gimli? 9) Why does Elrond counsel Boromir not to blow his horn again until he is on the borders of his own land? 10) While in Rivendell, Frodo is looking out his window at night and sees a red burning star on the horizon. What does this signify? 11) Why does Elrond specifically have misgivings about Pippin? 12) Tolkien takes care to mention specific things from the past in this chapter, but explains none of them: Beren and Luthien, Eregion, and Moria (though the reader will learn about Moria soon enough)--why doesn't he fill out this information at least somewhat? |
10-17-2004, 02:40 AM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
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Other Points
Other Issues
1) Note that the structure here is similar to Book I: I.1 has a "party" and many meetings and introduces us to the characters. I.2 is a "council" between Gandalf and Frodo that tells us a lot about the Ring I.3 the Ring is on the move through the Shire, the nearly disastrous hike through the woods, the meeting Riders and Gildor. II.1 is a formal dinner with many meetings and introduction of some new characters and rediscovering old ones in new guise II.2 is a council at which mostly Gandalf speaks and we learn yet more about the Ring II.3 is described above. There are of course differences, but enough similaries to make a comparison. 2) The date of the departure is Dec. 25, in our calendar Christmas Day, the day of Incarnation. An appropriate day for beginnings, and for beginnings of adventures that complete cycles of history. 3) There is also some similarity between here and The Hobbit that most readers will have noted. On leaving Rivendell in The Hobbit, on crossing the Misty Mtns encounter a storm, stone giants throwing boulders etc, causing them to take cover, which eventually leads them to going underground. 4) A point that need not detain us but I find interesting in my weird way: Oct 25 is the date of the Council of Elrond, it also happens in the church calendar to be the date of Sts. Crispis and Crispian, which has not connection to LoTR other than to say that its a great scene in my favorite play, Henry V. Jan 8, the day they enter Hollin is also the feast day of Frodobert, a 7th century monk, who other than the similiarity in name, has nothing to do with LoTR. 5) the decoration and runes on Aragorn's sword always remind me of Beowulf, where the sword Beowulf uses is said to bound with runes and to have the story of the rebellion of the giants in Genesis 6 carved on its hilt. 6) Tolkien, as indicated above, refers to several things in the chapter that hearken back to the past, another feature of epic literature that Tolkien imitates. As indicated at the top, it is that fascination with the past behind the story that keeps me returning to LoTR (and Beowulf, and other tales), trying to find clues to what it all means |
10-18-2004, 09:17 PM | #3 | |
King of Nargothrond
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Haha...January 8th is also the birthday of Elvis Presley, and myself. Sorry...lol
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10-17-2004, 04:22 AM | #4 | ||||||||||||||
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Okay I'll start off.
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"I will not go forth as a thief in the night." Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-17-2004, 07:05 AM | #5 | |||||
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
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First of all, thank you Forkbeard for this great intro and the fun facts about the dates
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10-18-2004, 11:04 AM | #6 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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This is a part that made me think.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-18-2004, 09:19 PM | #7 | |
King of Nargothrond
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Location: Canada! eh?
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I actually believe that Tolkien did nopt fuly understand Gandalf at this point...or his connection to Valinor and the maia, Olorin. Gandalf was still being developed from the mere conjuror of the Hobbit, into the deep and wise character he would become.
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"THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!" |
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10-18-2004, 09:36 PM | #8 | |
King of Nargothrond
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I also believe that this is Earendil...the symbolism is perfect. In fact Frodo and sam talk about it later, how "the story is continuing even now..." when they use the Phial of Galadriel, which comtains the light of Earendil, which is the Silmaril of Feanor, taken by Beren and Luthien from Morgoth's crown. It is a symbol of hope...If Beren and uthien could recover a silmaril, and Earendil come all the way through the shadowy seas to Valinor, there is hope for Frodo.
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"THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!" |
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10-18-2004, 11:15 PM | #9 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Oh, I always thought that the red star was some symbol of Mordor - I need to re-read that section ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-19-2004, 02:23 AM | #10 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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I thought that to at first.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
03-23-2005, 05:33 AM | #11 | |
Elf Lord
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10-20-2004, 10:33 AM | #12 | ||||||||||||
The Intermittent One
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Nice Intro Forkbeard
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10-20-2004, 03:18 PM | #13 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
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“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens”-says Gimli to Elrond. In translation his words is:“ I do not believe it’s your true plans about the Fellowship” Quote:
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Last edited by Olmer : 10-31-2004 at 12:00 AM. |
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10-20-2004, 04:25 PM | #14 | ||||||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Why did Elrond say this? Well, one interesting piece of information that most people miss is that Elrond and Elros were raised by Maedhros after Elendil and Elwing left middle earth. Elrond got a good first-hand look at how a foolishly sworn oath destroyed some of the most noble elves ever to walk in Middle Earth. In fact, he may have recieved this same advice when he was young, from the Sons of Feanor who had sworn an oath they wished they could go back on.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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10-20-2004, 04:43 PM | #15 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-23-2004, 01:25 AM | #16 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Oh, all those "E" names! The only thing worse is all those "F" names - Finwe, Feanor, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Finrod, Fingon, Finduilas, Felagund, *trails off* ....
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-23-2004 at 01:27 AM. |
10-23-2004, 11:22 AM | #17 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I'm sure I've heard you say that before!
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-28-2004, 05:27 AM | #18 | ||||
Elf Lord
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My impression from the book has always been that it was the mountain itself that defeated them; isn't there some line about there being spirits that have no allegiance to anyone but are just spiteful to everyone out of badness? Tolkien again uses the ambiguous "as if" voice, this time in referring to Caradhras' acknowledging their defeat by stopping the storm, so we don't know for sure, but I reckon it's supposed to be an actual ill will. However, I think this device very nicely illustrates how Tolkien gets us inside the mindset of a superstition. Quote:
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10-29-2004, 12:22 AM | #19 | |
Elven Warrior
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10-30-2004, 08:58 AM | #20 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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I really meant to join in the discussion on this chapter, because the summary was great! Not having the books with me seems to have sapped my LOTR participation though...
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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