Did Vardamir Nolimon have a choice?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

While I was recently reading the Sil, I read the part where it said that Elrond and his children had the choice of whether they were counted among the elves or among Mortal Men. This lead me to wonder whether or not Elros' child/ren had a choice aswell, or whether, as they were already considered as mortal men, they did not.
Thoughts?

[jammi567]

i think because they are men, they don't get a choice because it goes against their nature.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What do you mean by 'their nature'? The fact that they are mortal? But elves are immortal. Would becoming mortal not be going against 'their nature'?

[jammi567]

Yes. Luthein also had that choice.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that can be counted as a valid example as Luthien was an exception to most rules concerning death.

[Gordis]

I am pretty sure none of Elros's descendants has ever had the choice. Choosing mortality, Elros made the choice for all his line.


But I wonder, did Dior have this choice? Or did he die so young that he was not offered it yet?

[The Telcontarion]

The choice was given to the half elvin. It seemed to me Elros had already chosen to be accounted among men, therefore unless his Queen was an elf, his children would be human. Elronds children were peredhel (half elvin) and they would have been even if there mother was not an elf because Elrond chose to be Elvin, though he still had the genes of man; therefore the choice would come before them one day as well.

It would seem to me that Elros no longer has the genes of elves once his choice was made, so why did Elrond still have the genes of men. OOOHhhhh!!! Or could it be that if Elron's wife was human, his children would be human as well, even though he would still be immortal.

[ecthelion]

I don't remember it anywhere written that death was forbidden to the elves, although it was not usual that they would die, and so part from their kindred.
For the men it is explicitly said by manwe, that it is not for him to withdraw the gift of Iluvatar from men. For the elves there is no corresponding saying (as far as I remember, please anybody correct me if I'm wrong).
So the children of Elrond could still choose to be counted among men and die.
So, if my reasoning is correct, it is only with those deemed men that they need to be given the choice.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

I don't remember it anywhere written that death was forbidden to the elves, although it was not usual that they would die, and so part from their kindred.
For the men it is explicitly said by manwe, that it is not for him to withdraw the gift of Iluvatar from men. For the elves there is no corresponding saying (as far as I remember, please anybody correct me if I'm wrong).
So the children of Elrond could still choose to be counted among men and die.
So, if my reasoning is correct, it is only with those deemed men that they need to be given the choice.

Aaaaaaahhhh!!!!!

[Ellf]

Telcontar...
I am impressed. This is good stuff. The best I've read so far.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

I don't remember it anywhere written that death was forbidden to the elves, although it was not usual that they would die, and so part from their kindred.

As far as I know, there was nothing about death and the Elves; it was merely that they could not pass beyond the Circles of Ea, as Men did. They were bound to this world, so that if they died, their spirits remained there.

Gordis: I know this was written a long time ago, but I just wanted to point out that Mithrellas was a Silvan Elf, not an Elda; as far as I know, the number was to apply to the marriages of Eldar and Edain, and I think I recall that it is written that there were more unions between Men and lesser Elves.

[Landroval]

Even though death entered creation through Melkor, it still serves Eru's purpose

Originally Posted by Of the severance of marriage, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X

For Eru is Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purposes, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them
...
Death is indeed death and within the Great Theme cometh from the Marrer and is grievous; but Eru in this death had a purpose of immediate good, and it need not have borne any bitter fruit; whereas Death that comes from the Marrer only is intended for evil, and its healing must await in Hope only, even until the End.