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10-23-2007, 03:15 PM | #1 |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it.
Posts: 1,052
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Philosophy
Don´t know if this is a good idea, but let´s try... So in here we would discuss matters such as good and evil, God´s morale, knowledge... And I thought we´d start with good and evil. The purpose, as often in philosophy, is not to solve these things, but to discuss and debate just to stay in shape and get new views. So. Good and evil - why do they exist - or do they? As far as I´m concerned, I´ve began to doubt whether there actually are any opposite things - are they not just ideas of the ever - ordering human mind? For example, hot and cold. Cold doesn´t physically exist, it´s just lower warmth. So if something changes, is it a contrast to it´s former appearance? And surely there are things which don´t have an opposite thing - they have too many properties for that. How can you find something completely opposite to a brown branch, for instance? I believe this will be interesting. Post!
And feel free to make up debates, though it will be easier to do with one at a time. Thank you.
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Hers. Last edited by Noble Elf Lord : 10-23-2007 at 03:19 PM. |
10-23-2007, 03:30 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Noble Elf Lord,
This type of discussion has been on-going on the 'MOOT for years before my advent and since. Try the search feature on good, evil, philosophy, etc. You shall find much to contemplate. However, I will say that there is absolute good and He is knowable! Human reason is not so flawed as to not be able to participate in that knowledge though in will human nature has been so bent as not to be able to accomplish consistently the good or even to desire it.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-23-2007, 05:09 PM | #3 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Just read all my posts!
There are absolutely no absolutes!! Every observation of what we call reality is relative to the individual's point of view. Thankfully, for many, since humans are the only "intelligent" beings we know of, our relative perceptions are fairly close, which leads us towards the illusion of absolutes. But don't let that fool you. All that exists is purely what we define it to be, good and evil being an excellent example of that.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-25-2007, 10:53 AM | #4 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Quote:
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-25-2007, 04:25 PM | #5 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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Quote:
Better to stick with what we can define, our perception-biased reality. For example, good and evil are always fun concepts to look at in an absolute way, but it's much more interesting to look at reality, where just about everything is only good or evil according to ones point of view.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-25-2007, 07:17 PM | #6 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Quote:
Quote:
"You don't believe in me," observed the Ghost. "I don't." said Scrooge. "What evidence would you have of my reality, beyond that of your senses?" "I don't know," said Scrooge. "Why do you doubt your senses?" "Because," said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!" If, as we agree, perception is imperfect, why would I limit myself to it? Quote:
Since I do believe that "good" and "evil" are not merely human constructs, but part of an ultimate reality that I may never understand, I know that other humans may err in defining them, as I do. But the fact that people try, even doomed to failure, is a point in our favor, and even a point in support of my theory. Believing in nothing but perception, you still try to be good. That's because reality is stronger than your errors. Like gravity.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-25-2007, 04:37 PM | #7 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-26-2007, 02:30 PM | #8 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-26-2007, 02:57 PM | #9 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Quote:
Quote:
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-25-2007, 10:46 AM | #10 | |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it.
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Quote:
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Hers. |
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12-17-2007, 12:33 PM | #11 |
Elven Maiden
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,309
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I'm officially following this thread now. There's a few things I wanted to comment on a couple pages back, but I'll resist for now. About those absolutes though...
I'm starting to become a bit of a pantheist. I wrote a term paper on pantheism and won myself over with it. If I was more sure of myself, my opinion might go like this: "I believe that the only absolute is God, who is everything." Replace God with Brahman, Tao, non-divine "everything", whatever your preference. "everything" is a little bit more than just the totality of everything in the universe but... I'm not sure how to describe it. I think it's beyond description or knowledge. 'Course I agree with BJ about not knowing anything for sure. Including whether I know or not or anything. But I gotta have some sorta guess. My other favorite absolute is absolute zero but I can't remember why. But I had this preoccupation with giving temperature in Kelvins for a while. Half of me believes in love as the most important and beautiful thing ever but the other half of me believes that pure love or compassion is impossible and it's just very very well disguised ego/selfishness/fear/etc. It depends on my mood. My beliefs and my personality are hardly absolute either. |
12-18-2007, 12:33 PM | #12 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-19-2007, 04:32 AM | #13 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-19-2007, 12:13 PM | #14 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Everyone is ultimately selfish, with everything they do. But, there is a difference between being selfish in an intelligent and empathic way, thinking longterm and big picture, and being selfish in a more instant-gratification kind of way.
If you truely understand the society you live in, you realize that what is best for yourself coincides with what is best for society.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
12-19-2007, 12:33 PM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Quote:
Best for me, for example, would be tree-ripe fruit delivered daily. I can assure you, that would be awesome for me. Awesome for you, too, I'd bet. Unfortunately, it requires an awful lot of petroleum to get it to me. So. Shall I support Chilean fruit farmers, or not? Shall I buy organic, or local? Should I insist on union produce? Should I freeze fruit in season, or buy frozen fruit? Even applying "long term thinking" and "empathy" to the issue of what I have for dinner doesn't give me ONE answer, it gives me a cascading series of trade-offs. And I have a set of standards that overlaps with yours pretty well. What if I had a different set? Won't work. It's too vague.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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12-19-2007, 05:43 PM | #16 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
Many intelligent people can not even do that.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-18-2007, 03:10 PM | #17 |
Elven Maiden
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,309
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Yes, i equate that with love. That and really truly wishing people happiness without selfish motives. Something like that.
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12-18-2007, 03:45 PM | #18 |
Elf Lady
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale
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I believe everyone is ultimately selfish, but I don't see that as bad.
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
12-19-2007, 01:40 PM | #19 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-19-2007 at 01:42 PM. |
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12-19-2007, 02:01 PM | #20 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Quote:
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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