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03-20-2009, 12:29 PM | #1 |
Enting
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How "Human" are wraiths?
I've been contemplating this for a while... exactly how much humanity remains to the ring wraiths? Are they completely mindless? being actively controlled by Sauron? Are they capable of independent thought? Or are they more like robots?
This varries greatly depending on the source. The animated film would have us believe they are like lurching zombies.... while the jackson film seems more like unyeilding ghost warriors. The books view is what im most interested in though... Gloin/Gimli say that one of them came to eribor to negotiate for the dwarf rings... are they still capable of social interactions then? Or was it more like he showed up with a paper listing Saurons demands and just handed it off? I know the witchking and gandalf exchange words, as well as the shield maden (can't spell eyowen, and am too lazy to look it up ), but the witchking seems to be slightly different from the 8... |
03-20-2009, 12:37 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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One of them (Khamul?) spoke with the Gaffer, and also with Farmer Maggot.
They can interact with each other and with Elves and mortals. They'd be pretty poor servants if they needed Sauron's constant attention, wouldn't they? Also, how could WiKi rule Minas Morgul and Khamul Dol Guldur without some autonomy?
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03-20-2009, 12:39 PM | #3 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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The Ringwraiths retain all aspects of their humanity EXCEPT their bodies, long since *faded* after the manner of Elves that have remained in Midlle-Earth too long, and their Free Will, which they were tricked by Sauron into yielding through their acceptance of the unnatural power of the Nine Rings. Gandalf says of their robes, that they are "real robes, to give shape to their nothingness," and they must ride beasts that have grown used to them to travel with any speed. Nonetheless, they still can speak, though unpersuasively (except through fear) which helps them with evil creatures like the Southron, once a spy of Saruman, and Bill Ferny.
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03-20-2009, 01:05 PM | #4 |
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And their intelligence?
Im trying to get a feel for just what these beings were... I tried to use gollum as the missing link... kind of the halfway step between living and wraith... however this has the flaw that gollum was not human, was effected by a very different ring (though maybe governed by the same physics), and his insanity and decent into darkness was heavily influenced by living in a pitchblack cave for 500 years. Are we though, to believe, that the wraiths were "gollum like" in their transition? |
03-20-2009, 03:37 PM | #5 | ||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
[ Quote:
Oh, come on! The WK was a great King and a great sorceror, even Gandalf admitted that. He ruled Angmar highly successfully, unlike those Arnor dudes... And he ruled Minas Morgul for 1000 years, without any of those high-and-mighty Kings and Stewards of Gondor even attempting to regain it. And he was the first and the last conqueror to pass through the Gates of Minas Tirith. It was he who directed the assault on Minas Tirith, it was the hour of HIS victory, not Sauron's, strictly speaking. I quote from LOTR: Quote:
Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 03-20-2009 at 03:38 PM. |
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03-21-2009, 11:08 AM | #6 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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And, we should not forget the words of Gandalf, when asked what would have happened if the Morgul-knife had pierced Frodo's heart. "You would have become like they are, only weaker and under their control."
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
03-21-2009, 05:27 PM | #7 |
Enting
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So why did gollum become a frog man? Would the one ring have had this effect on bilbo? Isildur?
Would the 9 have turned hobbits into froglike creatures or into wraiths? Would gollum have become a wraith eventually |
03-21-2009, 08:24 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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If Gollum became a "frog man", it is from spending the better part of five centuries in the water. I think even the weakest swimmer of us could become masters of the water with that amount of time and practice.
If by "frog man" you mean he physically changed features by evolving/devolving/mutating/whatever, I'm not sure there's any non-movie evidence of that. He got really skinny, came to be able to see well in the dark, and became a really great swimmer. As I said, 500 years in the water of a cave will do that to you. Unless I'm forgetting something...
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03-21-2009, 08:59 PM | #9 |
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So we're blaming his inhuman sense of smell, ability to see in the dark, and mutated body (he did not pass as a hobbit any longer) on the evolution of 500 years spent in a cave, not the ring he used in that time?
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03-22-2009, 02:11 AM | #10 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Well, the Ring enabled him to live these 500+ years. Without it, he would have died long before becoming adapted.
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03-22-2009, 11:14 AM | #11 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"The Ring gave him power according to his stature." -Gandalf
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
03-23-2009, 11:37 AM | #12 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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03-23-2009, 01:49 PM | #13 |
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Multiple times they mention his eyes changing colors depending on his mood...
"to his alarm Bilbo now saw two small points of light peering at him. As suspicion grew in Gollum's mind, the light of his eyes burned with a pale flame." Normal hobbits eyes dont glow in the dark, change between green and yellow. There are various mentions of elven materials burning his skin. Not normal to other hobbit physiology. I can look those up later for you. I Dont my books on me right now. |
03-23-2009, 02:07 PM | #14 |
Enting
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Also, i take it that since Bilbo could not tell that gollum was a hobbit, he had to be pretty much had to have been warped to some extent.
Show me a starved wild human... and i can still tell its a human. Last edited by Tinman : 03-23-2009 at 02:10 PM. |
03-23-2009, 03:46 PM | #15 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Aiiie, not the old "Was Gollum a Stoor" argument!!!
Seriously, the Nine were capable of wasting Mortal Men away to wraths, why would the One not be able to work some changes? As far as the eyes changing color, that's a literary trope, often seen in novels but never in real life. (and I should know, I look at them professionally every day)
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
03-23-2009, 03:55 PM | #16 |
Enting
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Wait. Gandalf comes right out and says gollum was a hobbit at some time.
Whats your arguement against this? |
03-24-2009, 09:28 AM | #17 |
Elf Lord
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If we're going to take Gollum's eyes literally, we're going to also have to believe that the eyes of Elves emitted light, as well. I don't think many readers are willing to go there.
I can't tell you you're wrong. I can merely disagree with your conclusion. It's all good.
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03-24-2009, 11:20 AM | #18 |
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Well, its not that im saying you're wrong, its just i can find quotes that seem to support this, but cant find quotes that conflict with it. Are there and lines that you might have in mind that conflict?
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03-24-2009, 01:51 PM | #19 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
By the way, without taking the thread off on a tangent, where do you stand on the shining eyes of the Elves?
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03-24-2009, 03:28 PM | #20 |
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I'm not sure what quote you're referring to on the elves eyes. But, without even reading it, I assume they had large eyes. Large to human standards, but not abnormally large to human standers (within physical human norm).
In which case you're right as we don't take this elf quote as a literal translation... However... if thats the case, I think we stumlbed upon another "balrogs wings" debate Last edited by Tinman : 03-24-2009 at 03:34 PM. |
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