|
09-18-2004, 02:50 AM | #1 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Good Orcs?
Can you have good Orcs. You have evil men lik the Haradrim and Easterlings and you could easily have evil hobbit's, dwarves or elves. But the theory of a good orc doesn't sound plausible. Can you have them?
What about other evil creatures like trolls and Wargs?
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-18-2004, 03:42 AM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Arthedian
Posts: 460
|
You can have Orcs who are more self centerd as was shown in Lord of the Rings. Orcs who don't want to be dominated by Sauron, but they will always be evil. The orcs in question from LotR wanted to leave Sauron and have their own land. Though orcs are always evil due to the fact thats how and why they were created, malkor created the orcs and the trolls in spite of the valar.
__________________
"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-18-2004, 03:45 AM | #3 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Orcs were created for evil, but men were created for good and some of them turned evil.
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-18-2004, 09:34 AM | #4 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth Series:
Quote:
http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=9238
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
09-18-2004, 09:42 AM | #5 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
So orcs were not evil to start out with. Were there any good orcs during the Third Age or by that time were they all completly twisted.
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-18-2004, 09:52 AM | #6 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
09-18-2004, 05:38 PM | #7 | |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Quote:
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 04-19-2011 at 04:01 PM. |
|
01-02-2005, 12:35 PM | #8 | |
Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Either walking across Rohan or riding through Fangorn forest
Posts: 2,000
|
I think so...
I think it would have to be a new breed (Or an ealry failed atemt).
But I think It is posable (After all, if a wizzard can swich sides why not an orc?) From me9996 who is being chased be orcs!
__________________
My status: Novice avatar maker. Elf lord Has no authority whatsoever Master of messing up
Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
|
01-07-2005, 04:31 PM | #9 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: England
Posts: 28
|
I don't think that you can get good orcs because they were created as evil. I also don't believe you get evil hobbits unless like gollum they are somehow corrupted
|
01-07-2005, 04:48 PM | #10 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
|
I think I have to agree. Within Tolkein's actual published material you can't make a definitive decision of what original stock orcs were bred from. As he often said, his characters don't know everything. (Which I think is one of his ways of glossing over inconsistencies)
That being said, I'm pretty sure Tolkein would have wanted it to be men, because he kept on with the themes of elevating those pansy-arsed elves to incorruptable status, and he had definate issues with industrialization and war, which are attributes of "men"... and the orcs certainly represent those attributes in the LOTR... Maybe if he'd lived another 40 years he might have gotten his backstory straight. You could make a convincing case for either elves or men, depending on how you want to view the "evidence"... I just lump it all together and say they were bred from both. After all there's no difference in the DNA, just in the levels of "spiritual being"... It's no great difficulty to convince an orc, or pre-orc even, to nab some pretty elvish booty... It's what you do with the offspring that makes a breeding program a breeding program.
__________________
I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-07-2005, 05:09 PM | #11 |
Tolkien-aholic
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ...
Posts: 712
|
maybe if you bred orcs with men or elves for many, many, many generations you could get a 'good orc', but that would be a genuinely stupid idea
__________________
What was lost is now found. |
01-20-2005, 08:41 AM | #12 |
Elentári
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Africa
Posts: 727
|
I deffinately do not think that you will ever find a good orc. There's no hope for them.
|
01-21-2005, 02:55 PM | #13 | ||
Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Either walking across Rohan or riding through Fangorn forest
Posts: 2,000
|
mmm....
Quote:
(Enless it was a very long war and more solders were need )
__________________
My status: Novice avatar maker. Elf lord Has no authority whatsoever Master of messing up
Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
||
01-22-2005, 09:51 AM | #14 |
Elentári
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Africa
Posts: 727
|
And who would they use as breeding stock? And what would they do with all the in between mutants? Very very very bad idee.
|
04-02-2011, 05:44 AM | #15 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Imladris (and sometimes Norway)
Posts: 3,304
|
I somehow doubt that Tolkien meant it that way, and guess that it was an oversight on his part - I would need to study Letters more closely to be sure.
As the text stands, that bizarre concept seems indeed to be the logical interpretation.
__________________
Signature picture art - Bard the Bowman - by vigshane Avatar art - Footsteps of Spring (a young Luthien) - by Henning Janssen |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Uruk-hai, or the journey there... | Olmer | Writer's Workshop | 43 | 06-01-2016 08:55 PM |
LOTR Discussion: Appendix A, parts 2 and 3 | Forkbeard | LOTR Discussion Project | 12 | 12-28-2007 07:10 AM |
YayGollum's Many As Well As Achingly Unique Tales Of Middle Earth Outcasts! | YayGollum | Writer's Workshop | 29 | 08-16-2007 08:28 PM |
Any good movies out? | south_harmon | Entertainment Forum | 2 | 09-08-2006 06:50 PM |
The choice in Middle Earth | Beren3000 | Middle Earth | 32 | 10-12-2005 02:20 PM |