Blame Fëanor

Elemmírë · 01-27-2005, 11:34 PM

Several of us decided in another thread that everything in ME that ever went wrong is Fëanor's fault.

Now we're out to prove it.

Who's with us?

Or against?

Count Comfect · 01-27-2005, 11:36 PM

How about the initial songs of Morgoth when he flouted Eru? Was that Feänor's fault too?

Elemmírë · 01-27-2005, 11:38 PM

Give us time. We'll prove it.

Not sure how strong our logic will be... but...

Embladyne · 01-27-2005, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

How about the initial songs of Morgoth when he flouted Eru? Was that Feänor's fault too?

*shakes magic 8 ball*
"Ask again later, silly head, answer unclear."

Elemmírë · 01-27-2005, 11:51 PM

I'll work on that one. It probably will end up being the only really tricky one.

Here's Chrys's earlier reason why Maeglin's turning bad was Fëanor's fault (and the reason behind this thread):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child Of Ungoliant

maeglin had god intentions until he saw idril, if it weren't for eol ensnaring aredhel, maeglin wouldn't even be born, if it weren't for feanor's stoopid oath, aredhel, turgon et al wouldn't even be in beleriand

I can link anything back to ol' hothead Feanor

So, Maeglin's fall and as a result the Fall of Gondolin are Fëanor's fault.

Any others while we work on the Ainulindalë problem? And trust me, we will. We will.

Manveru · 01-27-2005, 11:59 PM

i think its more Morgoth's fault than Feanor's. But then you could say it was Iluvatar's fault for creating Melkor...

Elemmírë · 01-28-2005, 12:29 AM

Be careful with that particular claim. It's not always well accepted.

Hey, does retroactive blame count? I say it does.

This is going to be a hard idea to accept, and totally disbands the idea of free will. If one believes in fate, and I mean completely believes in fate, then it would seem that everything that occurred in the past perhaps did so only to effect what would occur in the future.

From my brand new (second edition

) not health-hazardous copy of the Silm, about Námo Mandos:

Quote:

He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.

This supports the idea that much of free will is an illusion. All of it, indeed, since the rest lies with Eru still.

Few can doubt that much of what happened (we're going to say all

) in the First Age, and after, hinged on Fëanor's actions. Now... since music is often used in the Silmarillion, is it not so that a piece of music often builds up towards a climax? In this case, what comes before also is somewhat dependent upon what occurs after.

Now, if we bring this logic back full circle to Fëanor, we will assuredly be able to prove (in this circuitous manner) that Fëanor is in deed responsible for almost everything.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-28-2005, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manveru

i think its more Morgoth's fault than Feanor's. But then you could say it was Iluvatar's fault for creating Melkor...

It was because of Fëanor, not Morgoth that the Noldor went into exile. All in all I think yes. Blame Fëanor!

Elemmírë · 01-29-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Several of us decided in another thread that everything in ME that ever went wrong is Fëanor's fault.

So, yes, we are trying to give him all the blame. It would be entertaining to see if it can be done.

And by giving him all the blame, I don't see how we can avoid retroactive guilt (I wonder if that's something I just coined...

). Of course there are other people who could be blamed (Túrin...Túrin...Túrin...), but I don't think that any, saving Melkor, is as supportable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mabass

Aren't you forgeting Eru? Since there is no free will and everything happens the way he wants it to then perhaps he meant for Feanor to be as...stupid...evil...whatever as he was. In which case Eru made Melkor evil because of Feanor and everything that followed was Feanor's fault because Eru had to stick with that same theme.

Essentially that's what I was saying. Yes.

Blame everything on Eru...? I thought you liked him...

Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane · 01-30-2005, 12:51 AM

Hey...I can change my mind. No...I still like Eru. He is my favorite, but I was trying to help with the blame part.
Hey! That's it! Eru was thinking up people to create and he gave them little voices so that they could tell him what they would be like. But he didn't think them up in order, this was just a rough draft. He acctually thought of Feanor first and since Feanor's mind was never at rest, he thought up lies to convince Eru that all would be well with Melkor and himself. And so...it is all Feanor's fault. And now none of the blame rests on Eru.

Elemmírë · 01-30-2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

Hey...I can change my mind. No...I still like Eru. He is my favorite, but I was trying to help with the blame part.
Hey! That's it! Eru was thinking up people to create and he gave them little voices so that they could tell him what they would be like. But he didn't think them up in order, this was just a rough draft. He acctually thought of Feanor first and since Feanor's mind was never at rest, he thought up lies to convince Eru that all would be well with Melkor and himself. And so...it is all Feanor's fault. And now none of the blame rests on Eru.

cute.

Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane · 01-30-2005, 02:14 AM

Thank you.

trolls' bane · 01-30-2005, 02:17 AM

So, you're saying it was Feänor's fault that the pillars were destroyed?
(sorry if someone already mentioned that)

But it is easy to blame on him...

01-27-2005, 11:34 PM	#1
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Blame Fëanor Several of us decided in another thread that everything in ME that ever went wrong is Fëanor's fault. Now we're out to prove it. Who's with us? Or against? __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

01-27-2005, 11:36 PM	#2
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	How about the initial songs of Morgoth when he flouted Eru? Was that Feänor's fault too? __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

01-27-2005, 11:38 PM	#3
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Give us time. We'll prove it. Not sure how strong our logic will be... but... __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

01-27-2005, 11:59 PM	#6
Manveru Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 256	i think its more Morgoth's fault than Feanor's. But then you could say it was Iluvatar's fault for creating Melkor... __________________ Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland

01-30-2005, 12:51 AM	#10
Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 103	Hey...I can change my mind. No...I still like Eru. He is my favorite, but I was trying to help with the blame part. Hey! That's it! Eru was thinking up people to create and he gave them little voices so that they could tell him what they would be like. But he didn't think them up in order, this was just a rough draft. He acctually thought of Feanor first and since Feanor's mind was never at rest, he thought up lies to convince Eru that all would be well with Melkor and himself. And so...it is all Feanor's fault. And now none of the blame rests on Eru. __________________ "Not only did my encounters with voters confirm the fundamental decency of the American people, they also reminded me that at the core of the American experience are a set of ideals that continue to stir our collective conscience; a common set of values that bind us together despite our differences; a running thread of hope that makes our improbable experiment in democracy work..." Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope Last edited by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane : 01-30-2005 at 01:05 AM.

01-30-2005, 02:14 AM	#12
Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 103	Thank you. __________________ "Not only did my encounters with voters confirm the fundamental decency of the American people, they also reminded me that at the core of the American experience are a set of ideals that continue to stir our collective conscience; a common set of values that bind us together despite our differences; a running thread of hope that makes our improbable experiment in democracy work..." Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope

01-30-2005, 02:17 AM	#13
trolls' bane Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe Posts: 5,408	So, you're saying it was Feänor's fault that the pillars were destroyed? (sorry if someone already mentioned that) But it is easy to blame on him... __________________ KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator

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