How did Arwen give up her immortality?

[ringbearer]

Is it explained...is there a ritual performed? Does "just staying" in ME and not sailing off cause it to happen? Or is it just a choice?

[Valandil]

Elrond and his brother Elros - and also the children of Elrond - were given the choice of being counted among Men or Elves because of their mixed lineage. This appears to have been a special grant to those few, not to any or all of mixed lineage.

Elrond chose to be among the Elves, Elros chose to be among Men.

For Arwen, choosing to be among Men went hand-in-hand with choosing to marry a man.

We are not told with certainty about the choices of Elladan and Elrohir, Arwen's brothers. Most probably think they chose to be numbered with the Elves.

[brownjenkins]

I've always wondered if Arwen actually ever made the choice to become human or, in fact, ever did. Her story could be interpreted as her giving up he life when Aragorn passed away, as many elves did when the sadness of the world overcame them.

I've always assumed that the "choice" was an event unique to the Eärendil and Elwing situation (them and their two children). Elros' children, for example, weren't given the choice to be elves, and it doesn't seem as if Dior was ever presented with a choice either.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I've always wondered if Arwen actually ever made the choice to become human or, in fact, ever did. Her story could be interpreted as her giving up he life when Aragorn passed away, as many elves did when the sadness of the world overcame them.

That's true, I never thought of that - but the Dunedain could do that, too ... hmmm ...

*gets out "Letters of JRRT" *

No, JRRT says Elrond and Arwen are parted, hence their great grief - so she definitely made the choice. (possible side-thread: is JRRT pro-choice? ) And a footnote in letter 246 has some good info, too.


But an interesting question, Ringbearer - is there some sort of ritual, or just something like a prayer request?

[Butterbeer]

Indeed - very good question!

...........

She made the choice - no two ways - but i wonder if she needed to - or was it almost forced on her?


is it a procreation thing do you think?

(in a funny old way,if it was that, it would make sense!)

[Tessar]

Simply put, she requested, and then filled out, a 'Termination of Services' form with the EIC (Elvish Immortality Center), stopped paying her yearly fees, and dropped her subscription to the monthly newsletter.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I've always wondered if Arwen actually ever made the choice to become human or, in fact, ever did. Her story could be interpreted as her giving up he life when Aragorn passed away, as many elves did when the sadness of the world overcame them.

I've always assumed that the "choice" was an event unique to the Eärendil and Elwing situation (them and their two children). Elros' children, for example, weren't given the choice to be elves, and it doesn't seem as if Dior was ever presented with a choice either.

The choice was given to the half elvin not just to the children of Earindil and Elwing. At the time, only this family of half elvin remained (Dior and his sons were dead), so only they were mentioned.

This is self evident in the choices given to the offspring of both Elrond and Elros. Elros' children had no choice because their father was a man, due to his choice, so his children were as well mortal. Elrond was peredhel and accounted one of the elves, he married an elf, therefore, his children were peredhel as well (were not Elladan and Elrohir discribed as looking like great men of westernesse in gondor - I am not at home, can't get direct quote). If Elros had chosen to have an elvin queen, his children too then would have the choice set before them, being then indeed peredhel.

Another point I agree with, I do believe choosing to be accounted among men would have been the right choice for any peredhel (Earindil knew and if not for Elwing, so he would have chosen). Self evident in the restrictions placed on the children of Elrond; that if they stayed behind when there father departed, then mortal they would become. This is how Arwen gave up her immortality, she chose to stay in ME, when her father went to valinor.

PS. Elladan and Elrohir I believed also chose to be accounted men and became lords of gondor as there is no mention ever of them leaving with Elrond. (Tolkien's writing can be very subtle you know).

PS2. Could you imagine an elven queen of numinore. If the heir chose to be accounted among the elves, an immortal peredhel king (Tar Peredhel?) would be ruling numinore; how deferent then, would events might have been - interesting.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

The choice was given to the half elvin not just to the children of Earindil and Elwing. At the time, only this family of half elvin remained (Dior and his sons were dead), so only they were mentioned.

I have to disagree, sorry. The choice was only given to that family - Earendil and Elwing and their descendants, not to other half-elven"

But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'Silm

An elf called Mithrellas married Imrazor the Numenorean around 1800 TA. And what? Their children became mortal by default, no choice given. Lords of Dol Amroth are their descendants. Mithrellas herself has not become mortal - she left one night and never returned to her husband again.

PS2. Could you imagine an elven queen of numinore. If the heir chose to be accounted among the elves, an immortal peredhel king (Tar Peredhel?) would be ruling numinore; how deferent then, would events might have been - interesting.

An Elf whom Elros might have have married wouldn't be of the descendants of Earendil and Elwing - so their children would get no choice. They would be mortal. Maybe Elros's wife WAS an elf - we are told nothing about her - but it would have changed nothing.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have to disagree, sorry. The choice was only given to that family - Earendil and Elwing and their descendants, not to other half-elven"




An elf called Mithrellas married Imrazor the Numenorean around 1800 TA. And what? Their children became mortal by default, no choice given. Lords of Dol Amroth are their descendants. Mithrellas herself has not become mortal - she left one night and never returned to her husband again.

She eventually left her children behind remember, that could be why they became mortal. There would be no choice before them then.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by ringbearer

Is it explained...is there a ritual performed? Does "just staying" in ME and not sailing off cause it to happen? Or is it just a choice?

Contract, signed in her blood with a silver pen, carried back to Valinor by Gandalf. (?!)