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02-17-2011, 07:09 PM | #1 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
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Test for Public Unions: Wisconsin
Really crazy developments in Wisconsin the past few days. Apparently the governor wants to tighten up the budget and control spending. One aspect of this is curbing public labor unions. This is a battle that has been looming all across the nation of late.
There have been a number of protests over this though. I've heard that in at least one place - school has been out for over a week so that teachers could go join in the protesting at the state capital in Madison. Now - because the Republican-majority state Senate needs at least 1 Democrat Senator present to have the required quarum to vote on an issue, Democratic Senators have just disappeared from the state. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41644074...ife/?GT1=43001 What do you guys think of all this?
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02-17-2011, 07:44 PM | #2 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I think politicking by fleeing across the state border is an awesome tactic.
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02-17-2011, 08:06 PM | #3 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I'm wondering if Illinois will extradite them to Wisconsin. Doubtful - since the Democratic party has had almost total control here since Governor Ryan.
But frankly - I think they're shirking their duty and should be replaced. It would be a very poor blueprint for other state governments to follow. The party out of power boycotts when legislation unpopular to them comes along. But maybe that will be the (terminal) fate of state governments.
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02-18-2011, 08:39 AM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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Two things here: the tactic and the issue
1) Seems like an underhand tactic, but aren't the Republicans doing their darnedest to scupper legislation in the House? 2) Seems like an outrageous assault on the employment conditions of these public servants that should be halted at all costs. 2.1) Removal of collective bargaining means "divide and rule" 2.2) "an average of 8 percent increase in state employees' share of pension and health care costs" means a massive pay cut. Up the workers! |
02-18-2011, 02:25 PM | #5 |
Quasi Evil
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Location: Maryland, US
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Im not a fan of the tactic but they seem to think this legislation is so extreme that it warrants its use. And Im a little disturbed at what amounts to an attempt at union busting essentially in the name of budget cutting. Do labor issues need to be addressed? Sure. But why the determination to take it out on labor in Wisconsin? Is this how the republican wave of budget cutting is going to manifest itself? As an excuse to play politics by attacking those groups politically aligned with the other party in the name of cost cutting? I think increasing the amount workers pay for their health care/pension is fair but some of the other stuff is just in there to try to destroy the union while they have the votes.
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02-18-2011, 04:05 PM | #6 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Quote:
An 8% increase in what they pay for this is nowhere near an 8% pay cut - maybe 2%, maybe just 1%. Most of us have lost a lot more. The public unions are asking taxpayers to continue to subsidize for them, what the rest of us have lost in this economy. The collective bargaining is a problem when done between a union and a governing agency (which can theoretically raise taxes to meet the financial promises it makes) - as opposed to when done between a union and a business or an industry (which cannot raise taxes to meet promises... they can only raise prices, but must do so within the bounds of remaining competitive). When the competitive business nature is out the door at one end, collective bargaining is a recipe for financial disaster at the other end.
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02-20-2011, 08:13 PM | #7 | |
Elf Lord
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Glenn Beck explains it all :
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02-22-2011, 05:51 PM | #8 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
And just because one group has lost something doesn't necessarily mean that another - innocent - group needs to lose something. In this case, a group that probably doesn't get paid all that much in the first place. 2% is a lot less than 8% of course. Perhaps they could compromise by dropping the "union busting" aspects and just ask the unions to accept the additional pension contributions? You guys are lucky by the way. Here, local authorities are having to put through cuts of 20% and more (in Labour areas, of course). Some university courses are getting an 80% cut in funding. It's utter carnage. |
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03-01-2011, 09:21 PM | #9 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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What do you think of this? Do you think there's some truth in it? If we run with this, I'll probably section it off and amend it to the thread I started on USA healthcare - but for now it belongs here, since you brought it up with the discussion here. We'll just see if it goes that way.
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02-20-2011, 11:33 PM | #10 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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State Senators are ELECTED officials that are supposed to REPRESENT the PEOPLE that voted them into office.
I think what they're doing stinks. If it's a matter of unconstitutional, take it up with the judiciary, but let the people be represented by their representatives.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-22-2011, 02:33 PM | #11 |
Quasi Evil
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Well you could make the argument they ARE representing their constituents because their constituents are union members and those that disagree with this legislation and feel it should be blocked at all costs. The bottom line is its primarily political. The republicans are trying to take advantage of the cost cutting environment now to try to castrate the unions once and for all because the unions back democrats traditionally. The democrats are pulling out all the stops and resorting to a stunt because they dont want to lose the financial benefits that the union brings. Once again both parties resort to political tactics rather than thinking of the people they represent in broad terms. Destroying collective bargaining tends to lead to stagnant wages. Do we want that when jobs are weak? Propping up government unions tends to increase government spending. Clearly we need to reach a middle ground which I think the democrats are willing to talk about (and Ive heard many of the republican legislature is willing to have those talks as well but they are afraid of this extremist governor who is bent on breaking the union completely and has sworn he would paint any republican who backed down as a traitor).
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
02-22-2011, 04:45 PM | #12 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-22-2011 at 04:49 PM. |
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03-02-2011, 09:56 AM | #13 |
Elf Lord
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To an extent. However, the ballooning deficits and need for cutbacks have largely come about because of the banking crisis, bailout and subsequent recession, not because of excessively high spending.
Put another way, excessively unbridled capitalism caused this mess, we don't need "yet more capitalism" to clean it up. And it's odd how many people seem to think we do. In my view, our government is making a bad situation worse by cutting back too much too soon. There is an argument to be made for state spending to remain high at times like this precisely in order to provide support to the economy when it needs it. As a recovery proceeds, private sector growth can resume more quickly, with less loss and hardship and, crucially, from a higher starting point than it would have been at without the state aid. And that's the best way to reduce your deficit. The other thing to note is that our cuts take place in the absence of there not being an alternative means in place. A good example is universities. Culturally, the state funds so much of it that we have no model to replace that with (e.g. scholarships, alumni networks, etc) when it's withdrawn. However, it is all ideological anyway: this lot loathes the state and wants to dismantle as much of it as possible. They don't care what happens to the services people rely on because they think that it will ultimately become an opportunity for their friends to sell it to them. Last edited by The Gaffer : 03-02-2011 at 10:02 AM. |
03-02-2011, 02:56 PM | #14 |
Quasi Evil
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Which is pretty much what is happening in Wisconsin. Seems that the billionaire Koch brothers, who own a number of huge corporations around the US, bankrolled Governor Walkers campaign and helped tip the election in his favor. And should we be surprised that now Walker has proposed such an extreme attack on the lower and middle class with his anti union measures? And while he is looking to cut hundreds of millions from education in Wisconsin he supports LOWERING the capital gains tax for the rich and lowering taxes for large corporations. It seems to me that if they are in such horrible shape in Wisconsin that they need to decimate their own school system and screw over all their public employees then the rich and the corporations should also tighten their belts. Wouldnt that be fair and logical? But instead the rich get tax BREAKS. Are we to assume its purely a coincidence that this happens in the first month of a governor who was funded by billionaire corporation owners?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
03-03-2011, 12:27 AM | #15 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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And part of the problem here is - I don't think there's really any substantial cut in spending. The tax increase is supposed to be 'temporary' - but I don't think we'll see the end of it. The state previously promised to remove the tollbooths once the tollways were paid for - that was supposed to happen in 1980. We're in the position now of taking in wayward senators from neighboring states - while those states position themselves to take even more private sector jobs away from us, by luring businesses into those states with friendlier business climates (unless those senators manage to prevent their states from taking our jobs away). I'll always remember Paul Tsongas in the 1992 Presidential Election (really - in the primaries) pointing out the dissonance between how Democrats are 'pro-employment but anti-employer'. Besides - in Wisconsin, the governor is doing what he promised to do. His opponents are rallying at the statehouse against him (including out-of-staters - and doctors filling out sick forms - where's the medical ethics?), and the media flocks to cover it. But around the state, people are still as supportive of him as before. You might talk about his financial backers, but he was elected by the people of the state - and ultimately is responsible to them. And remember too - that this is not a thing about any and all unions. It's strictly involving public unions. Those who can sit down at a table making demands - that the other side can meet by simply raising taxes. And the unions are not being disbanded - they're being asked to give back some of what they had previously negotiated for themselves. (*) - note, expecially for our non-American members - here in the USA, states are free to determine how they will raise revenue. The most common forms are state income tax, sales tax, property tax - usually some combination of the above. Illinois 3% was fairly low compared to other states (as I understand it), but they get their money in other ways. Here in Cook County, the sales tax is now above 10%. Then - there's also state revenue from tollways, gambling, the lottery (gambling), etc. In some cases, residents will play the states against one another. Oregon has no sales tax, and Washington has no property tax - so some people intentionally live in Washington and do all their buying in Oregon, to avoid taxes either way.
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03-03-2011, 03:13 PM | #16 | ||
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
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As for Illinois, I agree its as short sighted to ONLY increase taxes as it is to ONLY cut spending. If things are so bad then we should be doing both. But we shouldnt increase taxes too much too quickly or it will hurt the economy and we shouldnt cut too close to the bone for the same reason. Can we all agree on that? The concept of cutting 700,000 jobs while handing tax breaks to the rich at a time when job generation is just starting to kick in is ludicrous.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-05-2011, 11:00 AM | #17 |
Quasi Evil
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So funny... and so accurate.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
06-11-2011, 11:15 AM | #18 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Curious about what kind of spending cuts you think would be OK. I don't know just how many ways a state could cut expenses. These are some of the things I can think of: * Cut state employees - this could include cuts to education, police, any other state body or (partially or fully) state-supported position (cuts public sector jobs) * Reduce the salary/benefits package of state employees (what Wisconsin tried to do) * Reduce spending for various state projects (effectively cuts private sector jobs) * Cut funding for state benefits - unemployment, welfare, etc. (cut off support for those most in need) I can't think of any others. It seems to me that Wisconsin actually made the best choice - of the options available. I think it was much more responsible than to cut any of the others, or to continue with huge deficit spending. = = = = = Illinois - by the way - has gotten weirder. Income taxes were increased on businesses as well as on individuals. So... Caterpillar threatened to leave Peoria and move to another state. Our Governor gave them a multi-million dollar deal to stay put. After that, similar deals went out to a number of various companies. Now all the businesses are lining up to get their share. The state will probably end up giving away more money than they're taking in with the tax increases. I have so little faith in the future of this state.
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03-03-2011, 12:08 AM | #19 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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So the way some see it - as opposed to your notion of the cynical view that 'more capitalism is needed to clean up the mess caused by capitalism' - is that the loyal opposition intends on 'more government intervention needed to clean up the mess caused by government intervention'. Greed - yes, we will always have that with us. It is not a product of capitalism, nor is it confined to the system of capitalism. It's part of our human nature. There were certainly a lot of cases where personal greed greatly exascerbated the downward financial cycle.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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03-03-2011, 04:57 AM | #20 | |
Elf Lord
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But you could far more convincingly trace it further back to the "Big Bang" in the late 80s. Or to the activities of hedge funds and derivatives trading from the late 90s and early 00s that spread the toxic assets invisibly throughout the system. My point is that the roots are complex, but by and large down to the way capitalism works. Not mere "personal greed", but the whole mechanic that rewards individuals for short-term gain, and takes no account of long-term consequences. |
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