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#1 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Tolkien's Changing Concept of the Nazgul and the Istari
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Was a Nazgul, even their Chief, as great as a Balrog? And wasn't Gandalf the White now more powerful than Gandalf the Grey had been?
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#2 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Quote:
Tolkien had an earlier conception of the Witch King, where his nature and identity were no mystery. In LOTR drafts he was called "the Wizard King" and was originally the most powerful WIZARD of the same order as Gandalf. Quote:
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Of course, when Tolkien made up his mind about the nature of Wizards, and decided they came to ME around TA 1000, it became impossible for the WK to be one of them, because, how then "the 9 rings were given to men?" How could a Maia become a wraith? So, the "Wizard King" was changed to the "Witch-King" throughout the text, and a few sentences when Gandalf reveals his nature (see quotes above) were removed. But that was all. Nothing was changed in the scene of the WK's death - so his body disappears much like Saruman's (and understandably so). Everyone reading LOTR gets a clear impression that Gandalf fears the WK, because he is overmatched. And it made sense in the earlier conception, because the Wizard King was the more powerful WIZARD of the two, or had similar power and strength as Gandalf the White. Also the WK still remains the strongest BY FAR than the other nazgul (though now the reason for it is gone). That is how the Witch-King lost his identity. ![]() In a way it is now a plothole of the LOTR. |
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#3 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Interesting... and I don't have those HoME books. Would you mind if I copy that into a new thread?
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#4 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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By all means, Val, if you feel it doesn't really belong to the chapter discussion.
There are several LOTR plotholes caused by the perpetual development of Tolkien's conceptions. HOME Books give answers to many debatable things in the LOTR - for example Glorfindel's prophecy and whether it applied to Gandalf or not. Also, perhaps to the Gothmog ![]() |
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#5 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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In TTT Aragorn mentions that Gandalf the White was indeed more powerful than all of the nine.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#6 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Aragorn tries to be confident, but old Gandalf is not so sure of himself:
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But the first-time reader, who has not read the Appendices before the story and has never heard of the Maiar, reading the above, feels apprehensive for Gandalf. And, may be, that was the author's intention. |
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