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01-18-2004, 07:07 PM | #1 | ||
Elf Lord
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Fate of dwarfs, ents, orcs?
I tried a search on this topic, specifically on dwarves, but didn't turn up anything so, hopefully, it isn't repetitive.
Is anything known, either definitively or via JRRT drafts or speculation, about the fates of such as dwarfs, ents, and orcs. In a 1978 edition of the complete guide to Middle-earth Robert Foster says Quote:
Iluvatar has set upon the Children of Aule beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it." And he seems to also at least hint at the possibility of an orc "redemption", Letters #153: Quote:
Oh yeah, and what about the fate of the ents beyond Middle-earth? Were there rooms for them in the Halls of Mandos?
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01-18-2004, 07:09 PM | #2 |
Orodruin's Flame
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Im sure Aragorn and his possie went and destroyed all the remaining orcs that went into hiding in the mountains and not what.. dont quote me on that tho...
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01-18-2004, 08:44 PM | #3 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
mordor swore a non-aggression pact and settled around a lake whose name i've forgotten in the south east of mordor forkbveard |
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01-18-2004, 09:53 PM | #4 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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01-18-2004, 10:56 PM | #5 |
Elf Lord
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The above posts seem to be about the fate of orcs in
Middle-earth. That's fine, if discussion goes that way. But the original intent was to discuss, speculate, whatever, the fates of of some of the peoples of Middle-earth beyond the "circles of the world" although, parenthetically, what happened to those in south and east Mordor would be interesting. I believe JRRT said there were large farms there to support the Mordor military infrastructure. As to the fate of Middle-earth peoples, the fate (doom) of men is clear, and elves probably(?) have some sort of after-earth fate, but the fate of the dwarves seems uncertain, and even more so may be that of ents and orcs. And what of stone trolls, who seem to have the ability of intelligent speech and independent action?
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01-18-2004, 11:13 PM | #6 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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I always thought that Ents were basically spirits from outside of Arda that went and dwelled in the trees but I'm not sure if they are bound to the world the way Elves and the Ainur are...I suppose they would be considered Ainur though since they were from outside of Arda. Since Men go beyopnd the Circles of the World, I also believed that they went to be with Iluvatar and that their stay in Mandos before they left was a sort of Purgatory for their sins beofre they went and rejoined Iluvatar. Of course I'm getting all this from Morgoth's Ring. As far as Dwarves are concerned, well Aule made their bodies but Iluvatar gave them life with the Flame Imperishable the same way he gave life to the Elves and Men, so I don't think that they perish utterly from the world when they die. Perhaps they do go to Mandos until the end when they will help Aule rebuild Arda. as far as orcs go, well if they were corrupted Elves (or Men as Tolkien changed them to later) then wouldn't they share the same fate as the race they came from i.e. Elves or Men?
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01-18-2004, 11:45 PM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by Arien
As far as Dwarves are concerned, well Aule made their bodies but Iluvatar gave them life with the Flame Imperishable the same way he gave life to the Elves and Men, so I don't think that they perish utterly from the world when they die. Perhaps they do go to Mandos until the end when they will help Aule rebuild Arda. as far as orcs go, well if they were corrupted Elves (or Men as Tolkien changed them to later) then wouldn't they share the same fate as the race they came from i.e. Elves or Men? _______________________________________ Yes. I'd forgotten about Iluvatar using the Flame Imperishable. Perhaps the elf hissing fit about the dwarf future was effected by the traditional dwarf/elf enmity, except for the Noldor. As an aside, the fact that Legolas was a Sindarin elf (as such a relative of Elwe) makes all the more remarkable his friendship with Gimli. Interesting orc speculation, too. Oh yes, I seem to recall reading somwhere on the Entmoot speculation that some orcs were of elvish ancestry and others of mannish origin. Uh-oh. That means movie Elephant Man Orc was a distant relative of either Aragorn or Legolas.
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01-19-2004, 12:41 AM | #8 | |
Elven Warrior
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01-19-2004, 06:04 AM | #9 | ||
Elf Lord
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This brings to mind the line in the Appendices about Gimli getting on a ship for Valinor:
Quote:
Ents are more interesting. I agree with Arien's comment: they were called into Arda by Yavanna, so they're probably some sort of Ainu. Another interesting quote from Galadriel to Treebeard in ROTK: Quote:
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01-19-2004, 10:17 AM | #10 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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This is what the published Sil says about how the Dwarves think of their own fate:
Quote:
As for the Ents, I agree that they were spirits called for by Yavanna, and as Ainur their fate is bound to the fate of the world. Quote:
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01-19-2004, 11:01 AM | #11 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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Quote:
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01-19-2004, 11:40 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
I know I've read something about this in HoME, but right now I'm unable to find it.
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01-19-2004, 01:32 PM | #13 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I usually like to think (though without any text of Tolkien as a basis) that Ents and Entwifes, when they died, went to the Halls of Mandos and went (re-embodied) from the Halls to the gardens of Yavanna. It seemed fitting with the last lines of Treebeard's poem of Ent and Entwife. (How did it go again? From memory: ) "Together we'll take the road that leads into the West, and far away we'll find a land where both our hearts may rest."
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01-19-2004, 03:03 PM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
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Easy! They all moved to Xanth which you know still exists today.
(I decided that when I was 12)
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01-19-2004, 03:11 PM | #15 |
Elven Warrior
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But that song was made by the Elves and Baumbart said that much would have been diffrent when Ents would have made it. Especialy the last line is very elvish, I think.
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01-19-2004, 03:24 PM | #16 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
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01-19-2004, 03:27 PM | #17 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Findegil! I meant to ask you who Baumbart is, but I realised it's just German for Treebeard.
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