10-23-2002, 12:33 PM | #61 |
Custous Sanctus
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*later* Do the people that say that we have a third eye, have any proof?? no they don't. they just say it for the sake of saying it.
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. - Dune |
10-23-2002, 12:35 PM | #62 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-23-2002, 12:40 PM | #63 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-23-2002, 12:43 PM | #64 |
Elf Lord
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The theory of evolution should absolutely be taught. It is as necessary a foundation as learning basic math and grammar. If it conflicts with your religious beliefs, perhaps you should be in a private school funded by your religious organization, and not by taxpayer dollars. I have always been a firm believer in the separation of Church and State, and resented any religious statements I was forced to repeat as a student (as in the Pledge of Allegiance). The government should not endorse religion. That is not its role, and it creates resentment and feelings of exclusion in a world which is diverse and multicultural. The theory of evolution is not a religion. Studying the theory of evolution need not deny your faith, just as learning a foreign language need not necessitate the abandonment of your native tongue. Information IS power, and the more you know, the better equipped you are to make decisions.
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10-23-2002, 12:50 PM | #65 | |
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Oh well... I think you are asking us to swallow an absolutely incredible amount of "gradual improvements", or the so-called "beneficial mutations". First of all can you name any observable beneficial mutations? The only mutations I know of are called "birth defects" - and for a very good reason - they are not beneficial. But - even granting the beneficial mutations for the sake of the discussion, I would say even ONE would be an incredible amazing event and WAY out of the norm - you, however, are asking us to swallow MILLIONS! Upon reasonable reflection, I consider your example to be totally invalid.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-23-2002 at 12:53 PM. |
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10-23-2002, 12:54 PM | #66 |
Custous Sanctus
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Hasty Ent- How is evolution a "necessary foundation as learning basic math and grammar."?? Quite right, it is not a religon. but if you go to public schools, and don't want to study evolution, you have to. there is nothing you can do about it. it should not be taught in schools. also "If it conflicts with your religious beliefs, perhaps you should be in a private school funded by your religious organization" what if your religious organization does not have any funds?? what if there is a public school that is within walking distance and the closetest privite school is a minimum of an hour away?? and what about people who do not have any religion, and do not want to learn about evolution, go to public schools and have to do tests on it? also what about children? they don't know any better, and they go to public schools and some of the teachers say that evolution is true and if you do not belive in it, you are wacko(they would probably use a differnt word that "wacko")?
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. - Dune Last edited by Ms. Undomial : 10-23-2002 at 12:56 PM. |
10-23-2002, 12:55 PM | #67 |
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and NO ONE laughed at my banana/peeling joke! I thought it was really funny ... oh well
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-23-2002, 01:00 PM | #68 |
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You have to remember this idea of what's known as Deep Time. We are talking about hundreds of millions of years. Are you saying that in such an amazingly fantastic stretch of time, not even very gradual improvements seem plausable?
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10-23-2002, 01:02 PM | #69 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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why you naughty admin, you! Laying a trap for a poor innocent Entmoot newbie, and a helpless female to boot! I'm telling ... *"oh Sister Goollldeeen Haaaiiirrrrr......"* First of all, if you're going to lay a trap, you shouldn't lay a shallow one *steps easily out of trap*. I think you are the one blatantly misrepresenting the 2nd law. Let's go ahead and examine, but unfortunately I think we will probably end up still disagreeing... Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-23-2002 at 01:20 PM. |
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10-23-2002, 01:05 PM | #70 |
Custous Sanctus
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How do you know that the earth is hundreds of millions of years old??? you don't! I mean look at the moon, it has no atmosphere so there for it must have been huge because of all the meateors hitting it, it decreases in size. and what about moon dust? if it was million of years old then there would be much more dust on it.
Ms. Undomial
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. - Dune Last edited by Ms. Undomial : 10-23-2002 at 01:08 PM. |
10-23-2002, 01:06 PM | #71 |
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Didn't we cover every last inch of this topic in the Theist and the Anti-Theist threads. If anyone who didn't has enough free time to read the thousand plus entries and still has anything to contribute should lecture on the subject.
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10-23-2002, 01:06 PM | #72 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-23-2002, 01:13 PM | #73 | |
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10-23-2002, 01:17 PM | #74 |
Custous Sanctus
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How do you know that it isn't a fruad?? how do you know that this carbon based dating stuff really works?? has it ever been tried on a something new???
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. - Dune |
10-23-2002, 01:18 PM | #75 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Treebeard's apprentice - Carbon dating has had errors. And what did you think of my response to your example and your follow-up post? Could you please respond?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-23-2002, 01:41 PM | #76 | |
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Carbon dating actually has a high amount of error potential in it. Things that are recent, like within the last few hundred years, I'm talking very recent, can be identified to within a relatively small margin of error with carbon dating. It does work for recent things. However, the farther back in time you go with it, the more errors you get. I remember hearing from my Dad about one time fairly recently when they observed a phenomenon in the ocean, and then they used carbon dating on it twenty years later, and got thousands of years! Another thing they identified with carbon dating: there was a statue in some big city or other . . . Venice, maybe? It had an enscription written upon it by a conqueror, over the one that was beneath. The scientists came along and dated it using carbon dating, and they found that the one written on over the previous one was actually older! Rather unbelievable, eh?
But really, the farther back in time things go, the more errors there are in carbon dating. Archaeological evidence is taken as a vastly better dating method, as is solar dating. But these can only go back so far, and even though the farther back in time you go there are more errors in radio carbon dating, since they have no alternative method of dating, that's what they use. They use it to gain dates millions of years back in time, even billions. If it is proven that carbon dating gets more and more inaccurate the farther back in time you go, then why do they use it to gain dates like that? Ms. Undomial, I noticed that earlier you said Quote:
Well, some of this is different theories that you are quoting. Evolution doesn't go against life after death. Some of the people who only believe in science as a god probably do believe that we simply become nothing, or just disappear. But that isn't part of evolution. Evolution is uncertain on a lot of these things, like exactly which animals came first and how things went. But also you're mixing two other theories, Evolution and the Big Bang. The Big Bang is unrelated to evolution, it is a different theory. Some people tie the two theories together, and that's fine for them to try and do, but the Big Bang isn't a fundamental part of genetics, or evolution. And about the third eye . . . there is very little tissue left in the human body that some use hasn't been found for, and we are still always finding more. Ever since the human body was first studied, more and more has been being found out about it. I believe that every part of it has its uses, personally. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-23-2002 at 01:46 PM. |
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10-23-2002, 01:45 PM | #77 | ||
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10-23-2002, 01:47 PM | #78 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK - one more point, and then I will do my wrap-up post. (and there will probably be 10 or 15 posts in the time that I am writing this! oh well)
One very interesting observable point that the TOE (th. of ev.) doesn't have any solution for is the very curious propensity of the human race to use the word "should". For ex, if someone bops you on the head for no good reason (i.e., they're not your sibling that is retaliating for you stealing their crayons ), your response would be "you SHOULDN'T have done that!" But the use of the word "should" implies that there is a moral law which has been violated. I won't even get into which moral law is correct, the very fact that all people have some moral law, whether you or I happen to agree with it or not, is enough to go on for now. Well, the TOE model cannot account for this observable fact (I won't get into the theistic TOE thing, for reasons which I will explain in the next post.) There can be no morality in an amoral ("without the presence of morals") system. The TOE says things happened thru beneficial mutations over a huge amount of time (very much a simplified statement, I know, but correct in the essentials), and there is no God behind it. What, then, is the meaning of "good", or any other moral idea? There can be none. Evolutionists typically say we have moral laws for the preservation of the species, but they are then claiming that the preservation of the species is "good", which is invalid, because it is a moral judgement. Much of our morality doesn't even make sense in a survival of the fittest system - for example, putting yourself in danger for someone whom you love - "why should I endanger myself to help this person? why not just let them die? I'm obviously better suited to live." I think most of us would think that is a terrible attitude (whoops, just made a moral judgement!) However, given the creation model, the existance of morals makes perfect sense - after all, God said He created us in His image, and He is a moral being. Something for you guys to think about
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-23-2002, 01:59 PM | #79 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hey, there were only 2 posts while I was typing my last one! OK, here's my final post, because actually I agree with what has been said several times - there is no "solution" for the debate "which model is correct", because they are both beliefs and cannot be proven in the sense that we have been trying to do. We can, though, examine observable phenomenon (oh bother, is that spelled correctly?) and see which model is the better fit, which is why I addressed the 2nd law of thermo, etc. I personally believe that Christianity (and thus the creation model) is the truth.
People, evolution is not a science, it is a belief system about the past. We do not have access to the past, we only have the present. Fossils are in the present! We can only make reasonable conjectures about what they were (remember the bronosaurus fiasco - turned out to be the head of one and the body of another - whoops! Now called the bracheosaurus, I believe. And the whole spotted moth thing which has recently been revealed to be a hoax). We cannot directly test the past using the scientific method (which involves repeating things and watching them happen), since all the evidence we have is in the present. Now I won't bother to "lay a trap" and wait for someone to say "but special creation is also a belief about the past". Of course it is. The difference is that creationists base their understanding of creation upon a book which claims to be the word of the One who was there, who knows everything there is to know about everything, and who tells us what happened. Evolution comes from the words of men who were not there and who do not claim to know everything (at least the honest ones don't! ) This leads into, of course, is the Bible true, but that is not the issue I wish to cover here, although I will state that it is in a class by itself, and at the top of the class, as far as ancient literature goes. Christianity is an incredibly reasonable faith. My main point here is to reveal some of the many inaccuracies and invalid claims of the TOE. And finally, I will let you in on my one and only purpose for even taking time to post on this thread, when I would MUCH rather be on the "writing in Tengwar" thread, and I should be doing some laundry - I have such a concern and compassion for those people who believe that the TOE is the only valid option out there, that I have sacrificed a lot of time to post here (hey, a moral action that is against my supposed best interests!) to show that there are other valid options out there. It really, really grieves me to think that many people think that they are only the result of mutations over a vast amount of time and have no intrinsic worth, or that the only worth they have comes from achievements, etc. People, you are of GREAT, GREAT worth, to me and to other Christians and to God Himself, for He created you. And that's my post! I need to get to work now, I'm already terribly late (I do part-time engineering consulting at a radar company during school hours - see, laundry isn't the only thing I'm good at I work with military air traffic control - really fascinating) PM me if you want to, I'd be glad to discuss more if anyone desires it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-23-2002 at 02:17 PM. |
10-23-2002, 02:19 PM | #80 | |
the Shrike
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Carbon dating can only date back 50,000 years or so, and is only used on organic material. The estimate of the earth at about 4.55 billion years comes from other dating methods. Regarding the eye, it would have started out that cells containing light sensitive cell walls would have had a beneficial advantage over those that didn't. It would have gradually been honed over several million years via natural and sexual selection. Bah humbug to those who don't know enough about the second law of thermodynamics. It refers to the distribution of energy, NOT the depletion. You are thinking of the wrong sort of entropy. This has been covered before. I suggest you read up on the theist and anti-theist threads so that we don't cover material that has already been bashed around to death. Rian, evolution *is* a science. It can be observed. The theories about how we evolved are the ones that are questionable. Nobody questions that evolution did occur, it is the how and whys that we are hung up on. The thing you have to understand, is that evolution is not about PERFECTION, it is about selecting for the best possible fit. Species who have a better fitness have an advantage over those that don't. Take the moth. Prior to industrialisation, it was white, and blended in very well with the bark on the tree. Birds had a hard time seeing it. But in this species, there were also grey moths, which were more easily observed by birds, and hence, their numbers were smaller, and they were less successful finding breeding partners. Then industrialisation occured, and the tree bark turned grey. Suddenly the grey ones have the selective fitness advantage, and the white ones are eaten by the birds. Evolution is all about selective fitness. The best possible fit. Regarding mutations, remember that well over 90% are neutral. They don't do anything. More later: I'm running late for work.....
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