11-07-2002, 01:04 PM | #341 |
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In cosmology the Steady State theory has pretty much been discarded in favour of the Big Bang theory. I don't think you can say that one is an amended version of the other; they offer distinctly different visions of the history of the universe. The Big Bang best fits the available data so is winning out at the moment.
Btw how does cosmology impinge on Creationism? I take it they'd disagree with that too?
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11-07-2002, 01:30 PM | #342 | |||
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This probably seems like a minor point to some people, but I think that it is VERY important - after all, theories are made to be tested and adjusted, and if data comes in that shows that they are very off-base in an absolutely basic way, then DISCARDED. And I feel that th. of ev. people, like I said before, are unwilling to do that ONLY in the case of ONE theory - the th. of evolution. And that is not only scientifically foolish, but dishonest. ANd actually, you did say "Only if there were facts that proved heredity and speciation didn't occur could the theory be discredited. " - but you later on talked as if it could indeed be adjusted forever, so that's why I elaborated as I did in this post. Would you (or others out there) agree with what I said?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-07-2002 at 01:35 PM. |
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11-07-2002, 02:54 PM | #343 | |
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11-07-2002, 04:23 PM | #344 | |
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Many new discoveries on the field of astronomy (not my strongest side I'm afraid) forces scientists to rethink what we know of the universe often enough.
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11-07-2002, 04:55 PM | #345 |
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Evolution is not off base, in an absolutely basic way. (Where do you come up with that!) Thats why it hasn't been discarded. When something new or different is discovered, it's added to the existing info in an intelligent manner. Evolution is not set in stone, (like religion). That would be silly, there is always more to learn. That's probably the main reason the creation story doesn't work for me! It's something that was made up thousands of years ago, and doesn't fit the facts we have learned with modern science. Why would you throw the baby out with the bath water?
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 11-07-2002 at 07:15 PM. |
11-07-2002, 05:08 PM | #346 | |
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Coldblooded/warmblooded is another good example. I just want to point out that the th. of ev. should, in the same way, also be subject to being discarded IF evidence is found disproving its basic tenets, instead of being "adjusted".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-07-2002, 05:17 PM | #347 | |
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11-07-2002, 05:20 PM | #348 | |
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(1) - I DID NOT say that it WAS. What I DID say is, that IF data came up that showed that it WAS off in an absolutely basic way, then and only then it should be DISCARDED and NOT adjusted, and a new theory formulated. Wouldn't you agree? However, I see many people so committed to the th. of ev. that they don't seem able to admit this. (2) - That's fine, as long as the new info doesn't contradict the absolutely core tenets. (3) - Let me not address the creation STORY at this point (that's a whole 'nother topic!), but rather let me address the model of creation by God, or even (what I prefer at this point) creation by intelligent design. In other words, let's compare apples to apples. We can't compare the creation STORY and the THEORY of evolution. We CAN compare and evaluate the THEORY of Evolution and the THEORY of Creation by Intelligent Design. My quick statement is that there are areas of BOTH theories that are in the realm of being "testable", and areas of BOTH theories that are outside the realm of being "testable". I'll elaborate further if you would like me to. (4) - sorry, I didn't quite get what you were referring to - what did the baby represent here? (I can be pretty dense on occasion...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-07-2002, 05:22 PM | #349 | |
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(argh! drat that 90-second posting rule!!) (argh AGAIN!! I guess I'm just a fast typist!! )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-07-2002, 05:53 PM | #350 |
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The baby with the bath water was describing your idea of throwing the theory of evolution out if some new discovery was made. Don't throw the whole theory out, it is sound! Make the adjustments as logic would dictate. Be honest with the facts as they appear. But I guess you are talking about a discovery that hasn't happened, a major discovery that comes along and makes evolution seem incorrect. Since this hasn't happened, I'll pass. I'm starting to get a little confused with all the statements being made!
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 11-07-2002 at 05:54 PM. |
11-07-2002, 07:04 PM | #351 | |
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Your example above is a great illustration. At the marco-level we still you Newton. Einsteinian demonstated superior accurracy or has uses in special domains. Does not mean that Newton was tossed out. As for earlier stuff: robert can be shown to exist, empiracally. Theory is not STILL JUST A THEORY. For layman it means just an guess or idea However, it is a conceptual framework that explains existing phenomena and makes predictions the two are not the same basically you can look at life with empiricism ie believing what the "facts" tell you or transcedentalism. I am of the former
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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11-07-2002, 08:45 PM | #352 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-07-2002, 08:54 PM | #353 | ||
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Well, Lizra, here are some points I can tell you to help you if you're having trouble with contradiction between evolution and the Bible.
1, Evolution is discovering some very important truths, but as yet, it is still has a way to go. As Afro elf said, science does improve upon itself, gaining more accuracy in its predictions and discovering new things. 2, The Bible never says how God created things. It says that he created by speaking, and things came to be. This can address the question of the Big Bang, as well as the Theory of Evolution. It doesn't say whether at his speaking everything simply went "pffft!" and came to be, or whether he spoke and evolution happened. Actually, RÃ*an, I tend to disagree with you about Creation taking place in seven twenty-four hour days, and the traditional interpretation, being a theory. I think that it needs a good deal of evidence before it can be accepted as such (Just as scientific theories do). Quote:
(Okay, I'm going to change RÃ*an's example here) A difficulty can come when you create a model based upon an inaccurate model. For example, let's say you know something to be a cow, based upon observed data, when it is actually a horse. Then, you observe something black with at least two legs on it. You might theorize that this is a crow. What you don't suspect is that it might actually be a human with black clothes on, because what would a human be doing on a cow? Now you've run into an obstacle, and until you go back to square 1 and show that the cow is actually a horse, you're not going to understand what's on it. Therefore, an inaccuracy in one thing, which has some evidence and can sometimes lead to errors in other things. If the inaccuracy is in something that is used to measure and discover about the nature of other things, then you've got a worse problem, for the information you are receiving can be incorrect. Thus, sometimes not only can a theory be wrong, but observed data can be in error. It is possible that the tools we have used to discover atoms were flawed, and thus we don't know that atoms exist. The things that we observe based upon our study could be tapping into something which is different entirely. I don't think that this is a frequent happening in science by any means, and I'm not using this to combat evolution (Though RÃ*an might ). Quote:
I didn't have to have faith at that point. All I had to do is ask God if he existed, and he showed me that he did. It didn't take faith to ask a question. Faith comes later, and if you ever meet God, I might talk to you about it. But science is a wonderful thing, leading us on to truths about our own planet, about the universe and about life itself. It can be fascinating for Christians and nonChristians alike. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-07-2002 at 09:04 PM. |
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11-07-2002, 09:06 PM | #354 |
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By the way Afro elf, it is possible, on a sidenote, to show you methods in which you might be wrong in your proof that Robert exists.
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11-07-2002, 09:23 PM | #355 |
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I asked God if he existed and he said "No."
Yes, Robert could be an actor named John pretending to be a guy named Robert. . But in the above example I do not believe that nature is attempting to deceive us on purpose. Robert could just be a figment of my mind. There are more I understand the cow example. I am aware that science is not perfect however I know of no other endeavor that has been as "useful"
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 11-07-2002 at 09:25 PM. |
11-07-2002, 09:23 PM | #356 | |||
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(1) if you were quoting my earlier post, you quoted incorrectly. I said "still ALSO a theory", not "still JUST a theory" - a very big difference. (2) that is probably true; however, I certainly don't think that because I am not a layman. Were you implying that anyone here was, or was that just a general observation? (3) Right. However, do you agree that there is a possibility that the explanation that is formulated after careful evaluation of the data may be wrong? (and that, obviously, is where the adjustment process comes in, and in extreme cases, the discarding). (4) I agree. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-07-2002, 09:33 PM | #357 | |||||
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noted then I would amend and say all theories are not equal. Quote:
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I am not sure what domain you are using realms in but you seem to be begging the question that such "realms exist" Quote:
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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11-07-2002, 09:37 PM | #358 | |
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One thing I am trying to do at this point is get th. of ev. people to think out the implications of "all data fits my theory, because it can be infinitely adjusted" idea. I think that most people now agree that if ANY theory's basic tenents are past adjustment, INCLUDING the th. of ev., then the theory needs to be discarded and a new one formulated. Am I right, people? Next I want to talk about why the theory of creation by intelligent design is suitable for scientific evaluation, but first I have to make dinner . I'll check back later
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-07-2002, 09:41 PM | #359 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Actually, Lief, I think I just misinterpreted YOUR post - *sigh* - looking back, I think you didn't say that I necessarily believed it, but that the classic creation theory based on the creation story in the Bible wasn't necessarily an appropriate theory - is that right?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-07-2002, 09:47 PM | #360 | |
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If you are swifting to ID. MY question is how intelligent is this "Creator"? There are several "design flaws" in Nature Are you going to use anthropic arguments?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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