06-05-2003, 12:53 PM | #1 |
Sapling
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Does Gandalf eventually die?
At the end of ROTK Gandalf sails from the grey havens. The task that he has been sent to do is completed. I was wondering would he evenventually die? Bilbo and Frodo would die being still mortals and obviously Elrond and Galadrial would not since they are immortal, but what of Gandalf. He is maiar, but his task is completed. Anyone wish to comment.
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06-05-2003, 12:57 PM | #2 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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Maiar don't die. YThey (like the valar and the elves) stay on Arda until the end of the world.
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06-05-2003, 02:00 PM | #3 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Except of course for the fact that the Blessed Lands were removed from the Circles of the World.
I think that the "immortality" of the Maiar differed from that of the Elves. Obviously, they were created before Arda, and so would not be bound to it. I don't think they reincarnated, either; I believe that Gandalf was specifically sent back by Eru himself to complete his task, which would imply that most Maiar, if they were to "die", would not return.
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06-05-2003, 02:11 PM | #4 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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06-05-2003, 02:14 PM | #5 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Hmm, good point, I'd forgotten about that. I agree that they don't normally die. But the Istari took upon them the bodies of Men, and all that came with those bodies, I believe. I really have no idea what became of Saruman when he died. Did he merely cease to exist? Was he cast into the Void? It seemed to me fairly obvious that he was not forgiven by the West.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-05-2003, 02:16 PM | #6 |
The Elvish Temptress
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I don't think that he dies. It would make no sense that he dies when all the other Maiar stay alive.
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06-05-2003, 02:17 PM | #7 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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doesn't it say at the end of RotK that after Grima killed Saruman, that Saurman's spirit looked to the west but then blew to the east? does this mean that he will just sort of roam the world? what about Sauron, and the other istari?
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06-05-2003, 02:28 PM | #8 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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The other Istari, I suppose just sort of faded, like the Elves, until they were no morewithin the confines of our world. Sauron I think went to the Void with Morgoth, but I'm not sure.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-05-2003, 02:37 PM | #9 |
Long lost mooter
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My answer would be "yes" and "no." It depends on what you mean by "death." If you mean "leave the physical body," then I would say yes, presumably when the world ends (then of course depending on what happens when the world ends), or if he would choose to cast off his physical form. If you mean "cease to exist," then I would say no, because as everyone has said, he is a spirit immortal.
As for Saruman, anyone can make a speculation. As I've said, I am always optimistic, and I believe he was brought back to Eru and hopefully redeemed, but with the direction that he would never be able to re-enter Ea, unless at the end of the world a new world is made, and perhaps then he could enter an "Arda unmarred." |
06-05-2003, 02:46 PM | #10 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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06-05-2003, 03:56 PM | #11 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-05-2003, 03:59 PM | #12 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-05-2003, 04:03 PM | #13 |
"The Bomb"
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To tell you the truth, I was under the impression that Gandalf was cool and he had connections, so he was allowed to keep his physical form forever, or until a time of his choosing.
Yeah, I know. I feel dumb.
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06-05-2003, 05:06 PM | #14 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I'm not sure what happened to Gandalf when he returned to the West. I'd like to think that he was allowed to 'die', and leave the world, as a reward for his great accomplishments in the War of the Ring. I had a little discussion with Findegil a while ago, about where Saruman went when he 'died'. Then Findegil argued that the Istari did not only wear the physical forms of (old) Men, but by Eru's direct intervention they also got to share the fate of Men. I was sceptical then, but his opinion has been growing in my mind. (If you're reading this Findegil, you may cheer ) So, if this is true, then Gandalf's case was special among the Maiar, and he would 'die' after a short time in Valinor.
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06-05-2003, 05:12 PM | #15 |
im quite stupid
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im sure they would of found some task for him to do round Valinor
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06-05-2003, 05:46 PM | #16 | |
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06-05-2003, 06:02 PM | #17 | ||
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-05-2003, 09:22 PM | #18 | |
Long lost mooter
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06-05-2003, 09:26 PM | #19 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I thought that he was corrupted relatively early in their stay, it was just that he wasn't exposed until Gandalf went to him at the beginning of the Lord of the Rings?
I must say, I rather like your idea, though. If he were truly redeemed, then I would think that would be a suitable punishment.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-05-2003, 09:34 PM | #20 |
Long lost mooter
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Well, let's see, when did they get there?
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